Signal – an ethical replacement for WhatsApp
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Could you explain a bit? I see main issue with Signal (though I'm not an expert, and they're not strictly related to security): it's centralized (and the server isn't even open-source).
The question is also a lot about your threat model right?
The encryption being crap really does not depend on the threat model. Sure, in some threat models you may not need e2ee at all but in that case, what's wrong with WhatsApp?
The issue with XMPP is that security really was an afterthought. Not only is e2ee an optional extension, but there are actually 2 incompatible extensions, each with multiple versions. Then you have some clients not implementing either, some clients implementing the older, less secure one. Some implement the newer one but older version of the spec with known issues. And of course, the few clients that implement it well become incompatible with other clients that don't if you enable e2ee, so it is disabled by default.
That is all before you start looking into security audits or metadata harvesting.
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I can't call ethical an app that relies on Electron.
Weird goalpost but Ok
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I wish I could do this, but trying to convince people to ditch an app they've never had problems with and where they all have their family, friends, work groups and school groups already mashed together, how do you convince them? Its not even about me convincing my friends or family, its about everyone else doing the same and when everyone has so many contacts in WhatsApp, that number starts to snowball real quick. Its just not feasible to try and explain this to someone who literally doesn't care. I mean even though I myself know what Meta is and how Zuck is complete asshole, I still can't switch off of WhatsApp because nobody I know is on Signal and I'd just be alone there. What's the point? WhatsApp is pretty much the first app anyone installs on their phone (regardless of platform), they're not gonna switch now.
Yep. I know the details. I'm tech savvy enough, but I use what my contacts use, and I'm not leaving WhatsApp. Same goes for youtube. The content I consume is there. There is no suitable alternative until the content creators switch. It's not really about the technology at all.
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I would rather SMS than use WhatsApp. But even then if my family is far away, why am texting them at all very often? With the time zone differences I'll call or email, or nothing. It's weird how people got along just fine with letters that took weeks and suddenly we now need instant communication for some reason?
we used to be fine with candles and stinky lanterns filled with perfectly good kerosene too. who tf needs electricity? 🤨
on the topic of family connection, I can't speak to your family experience. only my own. and our family group chat is pretty damn active.
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I wish I could do this, but trying to convince people to ditch an app they've never had problems with and where they all have their family, friends, work groups and school groups already mashed together, how do you convince them? Its not even about me convincing my friends or family, its about everyone else doing the same and when everyone has so many contacts in WhatsApp, that number starts to snowball real quick. Its just not feasible to try and explain this to someone who literally doesn't care. I mean even though I myself know what Meta is and how Zuck is complete asshole, I still can't switch off of WhatsApp because nobody I know is on Signal and I'd just be alone there. What's the point? WhatsApp is pretty much the first app anyone installs on their phone (regardless of platform), they're not gonna switch now.
Just ditch WhatsApp. Don't give in to social pressure to install malware on your phone
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Wish more of my contact list would switch over to Signal. It's nearly the same. I don't see why it's so hard for some people to just start using Signal instead of WhatsApp.
Oh well.
"But why, everyone is on WhatsApp", and also a lot of businesses.
"Privacy? I've got nothing to hide, what are they gonna do eith my info?" -
To get encryption one must start a "secret chat". It's an opt-in! Regular users will not even know the option exists, that's how well hidden it is.
Regular chats? Plainly readable on the server.
The main differences between a regular chat and a secret chat in Telegram, from a security standpoint, are:
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End-to-End Encryption
• Regular Chat: Messages are encrypted client-server-server-client, meaning Telegram servers can technically access the content.
• Secret Chat: Messages are end-to-end encrypted, so only you and the recipient can read them. Not even Telegram can decrypt them. -
Cloud Storage
• Regular Chat: Messages are stored in the cloud. You can access them from any device logged into your Telegram account.
• Secret Chat: Messages are device-specific and not stored in the cloud. They can only be read on the devices where the secret chat was initiated. -
Self-Destruct Timer
• Regular Chat: No self-destruct functionality.
• Secret Chat: You can set a self-destruct timer for messages after they’re read. -
Forwarding
• Regular Chat: Messages can be freely forwarded.
• Secret Chat: Messages cannot be forwarded. -
Screenshots
• Regular Chat: Screenshots are not restricted or notified.
• Secret Chat: Telegram tries to prevent or notify about screenshots (depends on the OS).
Summary:
Use secret chats if you need maximum privacy, as they’re more secure and don’t rely on Telegram’s servers to store message content. However, they’re less convenient because you lose cloud sync and multi-device support.
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we used to be fine with candles and stinky lanterns filled with perfectly good kerosene too. who tf needs electricity? 🤨
on the topic of family connection, I can't speak to your family experience. only my own. and our family group chat is pretty damn active.
Did you get everyone to settle on the same thing, like Signal? We are spread out over about 8 countries, and with all the different phone numbers and plans, we use various methods, with several of us on Signal. Some on whatsapp, some on messenger. So we are not coordinated enough for a group chat. Which is fine, I dont really need to know everything all the time, we catch up when can, or get into small video chats occasionally. Luckily we do tend to physically see each other somewhat frequently.
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Weird goalpost but Ok
I think it is more of a hill than a goalpost.
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That’s not even what it is lol.
And as the other commenter alluded to, defaults matter. You’re not replacing the thing everyone is already using by pitching “here’s an alternative that is better in ways which don’t affect your usage at all, and also you have to dig into the settings to turn off the optional daily popups”
They are monthly not daily popups. They are daily at the start kust to make sure you memorize your PIN, then they peter off.
However if you ignore a monthly one then it doesn't disturb you until the next monthly reminder. What is the point of a PIN if it can be ignored?
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There is threema, a Swiss messenger that gained some popularity earlier since they had end to end encryption before whatsapp.
Unfortunately the source code is not open (even though they do get annual audits with public reports), and the client costs 3 EUR or something (once).
Unfortunately the source code is not open
Wrong.
Open Source – Transparency Matters – Threema
The Threema apps are open source. Find out how to download and compile the source code, and learn more about reproducible builds.
Threema (threema.com)
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Did you get everyone to settle on the same thing, like Signal? We are spread out over about 8 countries, and with all the different phone numbers and plans, we use various methods, with several of us on Signal. Some on whatsapp, some on messenger. So we are not coordinated enough for a group chat. Which is fine, I dont really need to know everything all the time, we catch up when can, or get into small video chats occasionally. Luckily we do tend to physically see each other somewhat frequently.
no we are all on different platforms. half are on android and half are on apple which is irritating. so sadly the sms is our best tool to hit everyone at the same time with any urgency.
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I don't believe in signal.
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I wish I could do this, but trying to convince people to ditch an app they've never had problems with and where they all have their family, friends, work groups and school groups already mashed together, how do you convince them? Its not even about me convincing my friends or family, its about everyone else doing the same and when everyone has so many contacts in WhatsApp, that number starts to snowball real quick. Its just not feasible to try and explain this to someone who literally doesn't care. I mean even though I myself know what Meta is and how Zuck is complete asshole, I still can't switch off of WhatsApp because nobody I know is on Signal and I'd just be alone there. What's the point? WhatsApp is pretty much the first app anyone installs on their phone (regardless of platform), they're not gonna switch now.
Well, just an anecdote:
I simply deleted my WhatsApp and moved to signal. Just did it.
People installed the app, at least the ones that cared about staying in touch. Which was most everyone I cared about staying in touch with. A few of my friend groups also moved the group chat to signal, though all of them do have other ones with the people who didn’t care enough to move too, but I hear it isn’t that big a deal, they had multiple groups before and will have in future, doesn’t really feel like any extra hassle they say.
It’s been fine. No problems. I’ve had more trouble trying to explain to my extended family why I’m no longer posting on instagram. Those I never had in WhatsApp either back in the day, so they “stayed in touch” by watching my pictures I suppose. But I just consistently tell people they can reach me always via signal or plain old sms.
I guess the biggest thing to be scared about would be fomo for most, but I don’t really care enough, I’ve got so much going on already that it’s more of a blessing that I don’t have to be involved in every conversation or meme sharing or whatever.
It really gets so easy after simply switching. Just do it and that’s that. The people worth anything come with you, it’s just another app and another group chat or personal chat. Most already have discord and the meta messenger whatever its name is these days anyway. I know zero people with only one messenger/chat app and unsplintered groups across them. It’s not a big chore, and if it is, there’s always sms.
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I will switch to signal when I can avoid installing stuff on bunch of my devices. Until web version is available, sorry it hard for me to switch and for me to convince other people to switch.
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I don't believe in signal.
I use it mostly for family chats, I got the extended family to use it rather than Facebook Messenger
What makes you not trust signal as against WhatsApp?
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Wish more of my contact list would switch over to Signal. It's nearly the same. I don't see why it's so hard for some people to just start using Signal instead of WhatsApp.
Oh well.
groups/channels?
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I don't believe in signal.
Interesting phrasing. How so?
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How did they get WhatsApp installed? Is a FaceTime or other video option available? Never give up, never surrender
I was with them helping them out. For reasons I won't discuss here I won't be able to visit them anymore, so that avenue is gone
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I would like nothing more, but so few of my contact group are willing to switch away... despite all of Meta's bullshit. I resent being made to use it whilst their AI/ads encroach further and further.
