This is a sentiment often repeated by manosphere influencers and there’s no actual tangible evidence it exists and I think that’s the real issue.

This is why I feel there is such a disconnect. I just have to open TikTok to see this, so if researchers are not finding evidence then I'm very curious how that's possible. Heck, you just need to look at the same masculinity influencer content they are talking about to see it, because it's not just them making shit up from nothing - they will often use clips of misandrist women to get their point across. So they basically find the evidence for you.

During men's mental health awareness month this has been particularly easy to encounter as there was a trend of women making as much noise as possible with the caption "me when it's time to take a moment of silence for men's mental health".

I'm glad that you never felt being progressive was at odds with being masculine. But many men, especially younger men, are struggling with this. The fact that you don't doesn't change that.

Why are they called unwomen?

Edit: ffs. I need to get off the phone and drink my coffee. United Nations Women. Third shift is killing me.

Excellent example, and I sincerely appreciate you engaging in good faith discussion!

I agree that being masculine should by default not be a barrier - social or otherwise - from working with children.

How do we begin to change that as a society?

Although I can’t think of the solution myself, I also don’t see how advancing equality for feminine individuals would hold back equality for masculine individuals.

As mentioned in another comment, a lot of these problems seem to stem from the enforcement of dated gender norms.

Bill maher touched on this last night on his show, and i cant believe im seeing more of it.

He argued men are shat on far to often in todays media with female leads taking more lead roles.

He also brought up countless movies starting in the 80s that pushed the dumb dad/male narrative that persists today.

Does he have a point? Yeah idk really.

Let me guess, the men will have their internet traffic monitored & have curfews ??

Oh & be put on a watchlist for merely talking in a raised voice against women.

Because I kid you not, these are real suggestions

You've got a generation of young men who did what they were supposed to culturally: went to school, got good grades, went to college, never broke any laws, and their choices in life are permanent debt and struggling to afford a roach-infested studio apartment, living with their parents, or joining the military to survive. Here in the United States minimum wage won't even buy you a cup of coffee in large swaths of the country.

And? Why should they be special? You’re arguing that because young men were given special status before we should bend over backwards by sacrificing others to their success? Women should continue to be underpaid, undervalued, treated as secondary to men’s success? Nevermind the barriers to any sort of professional and societal success as a woman to begin with.

What social contract? Again, the one that puts male wants and needs ahead of others?

That is what you’re arguing, no?

Your argument and vitriole is a nice example of weaponized self-righteousness. You think because you're aware of a class of people that has a disadvantage in labor, that makes your opinion on that group more valuable than others, and instead of having the conversation about labor or why some men fall prey to bullshit, because of vitriole like this that serves only to alienate, you're playing right into the hands of people who divide labor and reap profits.

Instead of stating anything at all respectfully and with a level head, you're shoving things down someone's throat (LMAO) for having something to say about what misogyny is to a group of people (some men) that understand where misogyny comes from, how young men internalize misogyny and then go into management to perpetuate it, and how's it's used in terms of capital markets to sell vibes to people (men and women) that feel attacked by a real issue.

People like you are a dime a dozen.

Bring back periods in initialisms. U.N.

No, this is a misrepresentation of my argument.

From the 70's to a few months ago, governments have made it a fundamental priority to elevate women and minorities, and it's worked. (Go look at the demographics of college enrollment, at least here in the US, if you don't believe me.)

I'm arguing that to fix misogyny you have to fix the fundamental economic crises affecting young people.

But I appreciate that you were very quick to demonstrate the point I made about the fashionability of blaming young men and pretending these problems simply don't exist.

Bill maher touched on this last night on his show, and i cant believe im seeing more of it.

He argued men are shat on far to often in todays media with female leads taking more lead roles.

He also brought up countless movies starting in the 80s that pushed the dumb dad/male narrative that persists today.

Does he have a point? Yeah idk really.

I feel like a Cassandra since I was warning about this for years now.

The gender equality narrative got too focused on excluding men specifically, instead of including the less represented gender in each profession. Somehow the idea was that men are privileged in the system and women oppressed, while the truth is that both men and women are oppressed.

Divide and conquer was a small step away from that point.

Yes, it is a choice. However one of the biggest problems is that so many of the good choices are gone. I’m talking about the positive social institutions and community organizations people used to belong to. The third spaces.

Communities have fragmented. Neighbours hate each other. Both of my neighbours hate our family. One is a childless, alcoholic husband and wife who also hate each other (they used to be nice years ago) who also hate us and give us creepy looks all the time. The other is green lawn-obsessed neighbour who hates us for the pine trees we have growing on our property and refuse to cut down (at our own expense) to suit their tastes.

We’re a society of severely mentally ill, isolated, confused, and angry people. Our villages and communities are all gone. We’re all a bunch of islands unto ourselves.

I think it's far more fundamental than that.

You've got a generation of young men who did what they were supposed to culturally: went to school, got good grades, went to college, never broke any laws, and their choices in life are permanent debt and struggling to afford a roach-infested studio apartment, living with their parents, or joining the military to survive. Here in the United States minimum wage won't even buy you a cup of coffee in large swaths of the country. (And 2/3 of the states still use that as their standard.)

The social contract has been broken, and for the first time, you've got a generation who are not going to live more fulfilled and enriched lives than their parents largely by no fault of their own.

Of course they're pissed. Governments should be addressing this, but it's more fashionable to blame young men instead, and the right-wingers are the only ones willing to admit there are fundamental economic crises for men.

And what about the women in that same boat? I'm confused by your argument

According to the Movember Foundation, a leading men’s health organization and partner of UN Women, two-thirds of young men regularly engage with masculinity influencers online.

While some content offers genuine support, much of it promotes extreme language and sexist ideology, reinforcing the idea that men are victims of feminism and modern social change.

So, 2/3 of young men are risking to become incels, right? Because it is hard to imagine a young girl who is looking for a partner with hyperfocus on his own masculinity as well as a partner, who portraits himself as victim? That is sad...

Way to misrepresent my argument. Thanks for the downvotes without trying to have a discussion.

My opinion is that society in general has elevated men above others. That is still mostly true, from entertainment to employment. Yes, there is no argument that there has been effort, more or less to offer others some of the same benefits men get, but it’s still token in many ways.

Now pay attention, I said society, I did not blame men for this (though they had a hand by aiding and abetting the status quo), there’s an huge cultural momentum behind male over-representation.

As far as the economy, a nebulous “we need to fix it” is gesturing nebulously at an economy that effects everyone, but it’s hard to take you seriously when you only discuss the economy needing to be fixed in the context dealing only with young men.

I’m sure it varies from country to country, but in the US women could not study medicine until the late 1800’s

In Germany at the moment around two thirds of medicine students are women and I wouldn't be surprised if it's the similar in most western countries.

Your argument and vitriole is a nice example of weaponized self-righteousness. You think because you're aware of a class of people that has a disadvantage in labor, that makes your opinion on that group more valuable than others, and instead of having the conversation about labor or why some men fall prey to bullshit, because of vitriole like this that serves only to alienate, you're playing right into the hands of people who divide labor and reap profits.

Instead of stating anything at all respectfully and with a level head, you're shoving things down someone's throat (LMAO) for having something to say about what misogyny is to a group of people (some men) that understand where misogyny comes from, how young men internalize misogyny and then go into management to perpetuate it, and how's it's used in terms of capital markets to sell vibes to people (men and women) that feel attacked by a real issue.

People like you are a dime a dozen.

In my experience the problem isn't the masculinity influencers. Those are just the symptom of misandry in media and a near-total lack of support in society for men, especially young men. When you go on social media almost all discussion concerning men is about how they are the root of all evil, and everything they do is wrong. It's a never ending stream of shaming with no clear way out. You're damned if you do and damned if you don't: If you try to defend yourself or talk about your own problems as a man, it is labeled as misogyny. "Be vulnerable and open up" they say but if you do it's "don't center men you privileged fuck" or "you're being a crybaby".

All this pressure is an impossible equation to solve for a young man who has been pushed by misandrists into insecurity and longs to be accepted in his community. Not just because society's demands are internally inconsistent, but because they clash with patriarchal ideals among the typical women you'll meet IRL.

I'm past 40 and while in my head I still consider myself progressive, I used to show it much more when I was younger. I was honest about my insecurities, I would try not to take up too much space as a man, would try to split responsibilities equally, and so on. At every turn this has caused me problems in relationships, not least with my wife of 10 years who left me for some muscular macho guy because she "doesn't feel like I can take care of her".

So now, while I wish society was different, I try to balance on the needle of acting like I'm not as progressive as I am so women don't "get the ick", while not tripping into what would be labeled misogyny. It's an extremely difficult game to play and it frustrates me to no end that this is where we're at. I'm moving in soon with a woman who I've been dating for a couple of years and it's clear that she desires that I take a leadership position in the home, whereas I'm just longing for a partner who will share the burden with me instead of becoming my subject. But I feel like I have to play that game or she'll eventually lose interest. Too many women want someone to replace their dad.

Bell Hooks wrote about this already in 2003. But somehow it is completely lost on these UN Women pundits that nothing will change unless everybody (including women) change. You can't just blame it on "masculinity influencers". Why are these influencers gaining popularity? Because they offer some way out, some positive message for young men who are completely starved for positive role models.

I am convinced that a woman's voice will count 10x more than the manosphere, if it offers compassion and guidance rather than hate. But such voices are extremely rare.

FWIW, the "men's health awareness month" has brought me some hope in this. It's the first time in a decade that I've seen women in media stand up to defend and show compassion for men, and I think young men will suck that up like a sponge.