Firefox is fine. The people running it are not
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But we can agree that there are upper and lower limits though. And I believe that we can now agree that system utilities and system libraries are outside of that limit. Just because the edge are fuzzy, don’t mean we can’t come to any conclusions at all.
Any now stepping way way back. I think we can now agree that Fedora, Ubuntu and other distros run the same operating system. That operating system being Linux.
i certainly don’t agree that system utilities and libraries are outside of that limit and said as much when i commented on Debian GNU/kFreeBSD: its its own thing… its neither debian, nor freebsd. it is however based on both
the gui is definitively part of the operating system - confirmed by that wikipedia page that you linked (though i’d say only in the case where the gui is heavily tied to the default configuration of the OS like windows, macos, android, etc), and that’s nowhere near the kernel
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You called what?
I haven't trusted Mozilla for a long time. They've very shadily constructed a business model which is part for-profit corporation seperated from their other nonprofit component which appears to serve little purpose other than optics. Most of their funding comes from / came from Google. Their suits make a lot of terrible statements about emerging tech all the time.
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The how is testing on one other browser.
What a novel idea.
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It's so damn stupid. If your site works meaningfully differently in Firefox vs Chromium, you're already doing something very, very wrong.
Yep, this is why at least for me when I develop websites I use Firefox first for development to make sure that the website runs on Firefox.
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i certainly don’t agree that system utilities and libraries are outside of that limit and said as much when i commented on Debian GNU/kFreeBSD: its its own thing… its neither debian, nor freebsd. it is however based on both
the gui is definitively part of the operating system - confirmed by that wikipedia page that you linked (though i’d say only in the case where the gui is heavily tied to the default configuration of the OS like windows, macos, android, etc), and that’s nowhere near the kernel
Ok. I have one question then. I think we can come to a clear resolution with it.
Debian GNU/kFreeBSD, what percentage is it Linux?
It includes 100% the apps, system tools, GUIs, and libraries that you associate with Linux. It also has 0 lines of Linux code in it.
If you can justify that it is above >0% Linux I will use your definition of operating system going forward.
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Firefox still hasn't fixed Bug 1938998 despite me reporting it multiple times. There's a reason why Firefox is almost non existent on mobile. I've been using the internet for 26 years, and have used Mozilla based browsers since 2001, I want them to survive to the next era of the internet, but they are struggling to keep up. Opera and Edge already gave up their engines, Webkit and Blink are basically the same engine with different standards enabled, and Firefox is under 2% on some days on Statcounter. I feel that soon AI based browsers using their own AI-engine will probably take over the internet soon anyway.
I have never encountered that bug, seems like an issue with the duck duck go not doing proper url encoding. I daily Firefox on mobile and its the best option by far with all the available extensions and of course working adblock
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Ok. I have one question then. I think we can come to a clear resolution with it.
Debian GNU/kFreeBSD, what percentage is it Linux?
It includes 100% the apps, system tools, GUIs, and libraries that you associate with Linux. It also has 0 lines of Linux code in it.
If you can justify that it is above >0% Linux I will use your definition of operating system going forward.
i don’t think percentage is a useful distinction… how do you measure that? by lines of code? by behavioural traits? my point throughout this discussion is that it’s not as clean as any of that
as i said: its its own thing… it is neither linux, debian, nor is it freebsd… in the same way that android is an operating system distinct from other flavours of linux
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… leadership impacts the product. Ff might be the best choice rn, but leadership will fuck it up.
If you have a chance to read the article, I'd highly recommend it. It directly addresses that point.
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i don’t think percentage is a useful distinction… how do you measure that? by lines of code? by behavioural traits? my point throughout this discussion is that it’s not as clean as any of that
as i said: its its own thing… it is neither linux, debian, nor is it freebsd… in the same way that android is an operating system distinct from other flavours of linux
The point is, that the answer is 0% by any reasonable metric. I don't think any more is to be gained here given the question dodge.
So I will say good bye and best of luck again.
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The point is, that the answer is 0% by any reasonable metric. I don't think any more is to be gained here given the question dodge.
So I will say good bye and best of luck again.
i didn’t dodge the question… i’m saying the question is rooted firmly in your definition and is therefore not something that i think is valid…. and your use of “reasonable” is just saying you think anyone that disagrees with you is unreasonable… charged end emotive: not intended to discuss, but to persuade regardless of truth
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Yeah, this is part of the new Reaganomics I like to call AIconomics. The goal isn't to produce a good product, the goal to make something flashy that tech billionaires want to throw cash at. It's not unlike crypto. Crypto has literally no actual value yet people are shitting money into bitcoins of every type in hopes that one will hit it big. Meanwhile tech billionaires keep minting new ones to entice new suckers every other week. The tech billionaires want you hooked on AI so you'll give up your private info that they can sell to each other so they can cash in, the software companies are investing their time and resources into making AI LLMs in order to get tech billionaires to give them money. It's a viscous capitalist circle. Only thing that will stop it is heavy regulation. But with Republicans in charge that will absolutely never happen. Trump practically made his entire cabinet out of billionaires and corporate shills. And too many Democrats gave them the thumb up, so don't count of Dems doing a whole lot to stall the big tech chokehold on everything either.
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Sadly I am running into more and more things that don't work on firefox. Stuff like medical record portals, financial websites for my companies retirement plan. Stuff I have little choice about. And most fail silently. They don't say it is the browser. I don't know how they are doing it, but google is winning the fight.
If a site I have to use doesn't work for no apparent reason, I e-mail the company's Support. Let them sort it out, or provide another way I can do what I'm trying to do. Personally, I think a lot of the problems are from more and more websites integrating privacy-invading "features", and FF interfering with their operation.
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… leadership impacts the product. Ff might be the best choice rn, but leadership will fuck it up.
The forks are Firefox with their own leadership. I have had pretty good experience with Librewolf.
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For those holding out for a hero: https://ladybird.org/
Ladybird is a brand-new browser & web engine. Driven by a web standards first approach, Ladybird aims to render the modern web with good performance, stability and security.
Question. Does it have uBO or an equivalent yet?
Without it, it'll simply not be internet-ready.
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If Firefox doesn't keep up with web standards, neither will any of the forks
Cold take: we need to stop chasing web Standards that are purposefully set up by big corpo to be exlusionary.
What we need, what Firefox could hope to be, is a browser developed for a new old internet paradigm. Maybe Gopher, or Gemini (the good one). Alternatively a purposefully reduced HTML+CSS, no JS.
Trim down the fat so that it is actually possible to finance the development of a web engine an browser without leeching on a dick corpo (and sabotagong open internet in the process).
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It's so damn stupid. If your site works meaningfully differently in Firefox vs Chromium, you're already doing something very, very wrong.
Chromium does a lot of heavy lifting to fix problems with websites which enables certain web developers to be lazy.
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The forks are Firefox with their own leadership. I have had pretty good experience with Librewolf.
How's that on mobile? Oh, right. It isn't.
We need real solutions.
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and it’s incredibly shit that you can’t donate to firefox… people donate to mozilla assuming they’re donating to firefox but none of the donations go towards firefox development
i emailed them about this a while ago… i can’t remember exactly what i said, but basically that i didn’t want to donate to adtech and ai slop but wanted to support firefox development… this is their reply
Thank you for taking the time to share your feedback with us. We genuinely value hearing from our supporters, as your insights help us understand what matters most to the Mozilla community.
It’s important to note that the Mozilla Foundation and Mozilla Corporation are two separate entities within the Mozilla umbrella - Mozilla Corporation is responsible for developing and maintaining Firefox and other software products, and they are continuously working on improving the user experience, including addressing compatibility issues and promoting the browser to a wider audience.
The Mozilla Foundation, on the other hand, focuses on broader internet health and advocacy work. Our mission is to ensure the internet remains open and accessible for everyone, and this includes issues related to privacy, digital rights, and equity. To confirm, the survey that you had received was from the Mozilla Foundation.
With that being said, Firefox is funded by revenue generated through the product rather than donations. At the moment, there is no way for supporters to make a donation that will be designated to the development of Firefox. Have no fear, things are looking good for Firefox's future and they plan to be around a long time, supporting folks with the most secure browser experience! Continuing to use Firefox, and recommending it to others, is the best way to support this project.
We truly appreciate your concerns about Firefox and their top priorities - We on the Mozilla Foundation strongly believe that issues such as privacy, online safety, and data security are connected to the products and services we all use every day. The work we do in these areas complements Mozilla Corporation’s focus on building better, more secure software like Firefox, and w encourage you to participate in our survey!
If you would like to input some of your thoughts and ideas into our Ideas discussion forum regarding Firefox and other Mozilla products, please visit: https://connect.mozilla.org/t5/ideas/idb-p/ideas
We thank you again for reaching out to our Mozilla Foundation Donor Care team, and please let us know if we can support your further!
All the best,
<redacted their name>
Donor Care TeamMozilla Foundation https://foundation.mozilla.org/
Unfortunately Firefox is a product whose job is to show ads for profit, so the only way to "donate" to it is to click ads.
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Refusal to make a "political" statement is very much political when the politics in question is about acknowledging non-men exist. There is no politically neutral choice when there are two options who are both political.
That's totally false.
One can write using the generic masculine form without making a political statement.
This is not even close to not acknowledge there is non-men in this world.
What you are putting forward is absurd. No one is saying that only men exist anywhere in here.
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Yeah, this is part of the new Reaganomics I like to call AIconomics. The goal isn't to produce a good product, the goal to make something flashy that tech billionaires want to throw cash at. It's not unlike crypto. Crypto has literally no actual value yet people are shitting money into bitcoins of every type in hopes that one will hit it big. Meanwhile tech billionaires keep minting new ones to entice new suckers every other week. The tech billionaires want you hooked on AI so you'll give up your private info that they can sell to each other so they can cash in, the software companies are investing their time and resources into making AI LLMs in order to get tech billionaires to give them money. It's a viscous capitalist circle. Only thing that will stop it is heavy regulation. But with Republicans in charge that will absolutely never happen. Trump practically made his entire cabinet out of billionaires and corporate shills. And too many Democrats gave them the thumb up, so don't count of Dems doing a whole lot to stall the big tech chokehold on everything either.
How viscous is the cycle
