As far as I understand, most (all?) fediverse #ActivityPub software does not use the Client-to-server protocol from the specs (https://www.w3.org/TR/activitypub/#client-to-server-interactions) but rather use custom APIs instead.
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@skyfaller Thanks. I guess I’m looking for more detail on what is meant by “underdefined” and “relies on the client to do almost everything” because my reading of the spec is that it relies on the server to do almost everything! I assume I’m missing something, but everything I’ve read about it is very vague.
@hugh What bugs me about "underdefined" is it seems to me someone should just go define it.
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@hugh What bugs me about "underdefined" is it seems to me someone should just go define it.
@skyfaller Well one person’s “under-defined” is another person’s “flexible and simple”. If people get their heads out of micro-blogging it becomes clearer why a more rigid definition becomes limiting, IMO.
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As far as I understand, most (all?) fediverse #ActivityPub software does not use the Client-to-server protocol from the specs (https://www.w3.org/TR/activitypub/#client-to-server-interactions) but rather use custom APIs instead.
Any fediverse devs able to explain why? Is there a technical reason/limitation, or is it more about other considerations?
I'm looking for information here rather than speculation, thanks.
@hugh In addition to the concerns expressed here, I argue in my book that Mastodon's status as the single largest ActivityPub implementer back in 2017 is a factor -- after all, Mastodon had an API at that point. People making clients chose to make them compatible with Mastodon's API instead of redoing everything for the then-new C2S spec.
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@julian @hugh We will forward your credits to @nlnet, which supports #opensourcesoftware. Although the name is similar, we are a different foundation that develops open source software.
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@julian @hugh We will forward your credits to @nlnet, which supports #opensourcesoftware. Although the name is similar, we are a different foundation that develops open source software.
@nlnetlabs@fosstodon.org oh! Oops
unfortunate name collision. -
As far as I understand, most (all?) fediverse #ActivityPub software does not use the Client-to-server protocol from the specs (https://www.w3.org/TR/activitypub/#client-to-server-interactions) but rather use custom APIs instead.
Any fediverse devs able to explain why? Is there a technical reason/limitation, or is it more about other considerations?
I'm looking for information here rather than speculation, thanks.
@hugh@ausglam.space some mastodon dev discussion re: c2s implementation, a while back:
https://github.com/mastodon/mastodon/issues/10520"The ActivityPub C2S spec is incredibly barebones. No notifications (as separate from home feed -- it's all mixed together in "inbox"), no search, no autocomplete, no domain blocking, no muting (as opposed to blocking), etc etc. You'd end up defining so much custom vocabulary and endpoints that you might as well just use the Mastodon REST API."
- gargron"The activitypub c2s api is cool but it comes from a wildly different perspective, and it would be a lot of work to write clients that support that, with no real clear benefit to the mastodon user experience. Furthermore, it would be incredibly hard for the mastodon code base as it exists today to support a good implementation of C2S and the mastodon API side-by-side—practically, it would mean basically re-writing the mastodon server from the ground-up. And even once you've done all of that work, there aren't any existing C2S clients out there that provide a comparable user experience to the mastodon front-end."
- nightpool -
@hugh@ausglam.space some mastodon dev discussion re: c2s implementation, a while back:
https://github.com/mastodon/mastodon/issues/10520"The ActivityPub C2S spec is incredibly barebones. No notifications (as separate from home feed -- it's all mixed together in "inbox"), no search, no autocomplete, no domain blocking, no muting (as opposed to blocking), etc etc. You'd end up defining so much custom vocabulary and endpoints that you might as well just use the Mastodon REST API."
- gargron"The activitypub c2s api is cool but it comes from a wildly different perspective, and it would be a lot of work to write clients that support that, with no real clear benefit to the mastodon user experience. Furthermore, it would be incredibly hard for the mastodon code base as it exists today to support a good implementation of C2S and the mastodon API side-by-side—practically, it would mean basically re-writing the mastodon server from the ground-up. And even once you've done all of that work, there aren't any existing C2S clients out there that provide a comparable user experience to the mastodon front-end."
- nightpool@hugh@ausglam.space (no comment from me as to the accuracy of those perspectives, just figured worth sharing as stated reasoning from one project's devs at the time)
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@hugh ActivityPub is very badly defined, I wrote an article about it (about s2s, but all of that applies to c2s as well): https://chrastecky.dev/technology/activity-pub-the-good-the-bad-and-the-ugly
Additionally, it's a very chatty api with a lot of http requests, that's fine for s2s, but for c2s it makes the app much slower.
Thanks for writing this article! I tooted about it:
small circle 🕊 in calmness (@smallcircles@social.coop)
#ActivityPub "The Good, the Bad and the Ugly" is a good article by @dominik@chrastecky.dev https://chrastecky.dev/technology/activity-pub-the-good-the-bad-and-the-ugly The two mentioned examples in "The Bad" are long-time issues that were also discussed at #SocialHub. I just responded to one of them on the forum.. The #Mastodon Update(Note) quirk. https://socialhub.activitypub.rocks/t/update-note-quirk/4545/14 The other one is around Direct Messages which are a hack (a Note with special sauce). #LitePub specifies ChatMessage object type here, which is the intended way to extend the protocol. #FEP
social.coop (social.coop)
And it was good opportunity to follow-up on two #SocialHub threads relating to your examples in "The Bad":
Exposing edit history via Activitystreams
Per expose edit history in ActivityPub representation · Issue #23292 · mastodon/mastodon · GitHub @Johann150 raises a feature request for being able to view earlier versions of an activity or object before an Update was…
SocialHub (socialhub.activitypub.rocks)
`Update(Note)` quirk
Today I tagged the v4.0.0-beta.2 release purely to fix a single issue — Update(Note) federation. It turns out that just sending the Update(Note) activity was not enough, the underlying object needed to also have the upd…
SocialHub (socialhub.activitypub.rocks)
Distinguish between posts and direct messages
Hi, ActivityPub seems to be mainly focused on posts, but some applications also make it possible to send direct messages, which I also want to make possible in my own application. Unfortunately posts and direct message…
SocialHub (socialhub.activitypub.rocks)
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@hugh@ausglam.space (no comment from me as to the accuracy of those perspectives, just figured worth sharing as stated reasoning from one project's devs at the time)
@cascode @hugh gargron's perspectives are still accurate and gives a good (partial) list of the many underdefined aspects of C2S. Related discussion at SocialHub: https://socialhub.activitypub.rocks/t/nextgen-activitypub-social-api/4733/4
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As far as I understand, most (all?) fediverse #ActivityPub software does not use the Client-to-server protocol from the specs (https://www.w3.org/TR/activitypub/#client-to-server-interactions) but rather use custom APIs instead.
Any fediverse devs able to explain why? Is there a technical reason/limitation, or is it more about other considerations?
I'm looking for information here rather than speculation, thanks.
@hugh@ausglam.space A few do, Pleroma historically supported it. Not sure if they still do.
Part of the problem is that it's kind of unwieldy to work with. C2S apparently requires developers to handle all logic on the client side, rather than the server. I've also heard that there's vagueness in the spec on how to do certain things.
The Mastodon API ended up being a lot easier to work with, and overtook the client ecosystem. It actually ended up becoming so popular that most Fediverse clients and platforms have adopted it. It's also one of the factors as to why so many Fediverse platforms are full-stack servers, rather than clients.
I personally still think that C2S has potential, it just requires capable hands to implement.
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@hugh In addition to the concerns expressed here, I argue in my book that Mastodon's status as the single largest ActivityPub implementer back in 2017 is a factor -- after all, Mastodon had an API at that point. People making clients chose to make them compatible with Mastodon's API instead of redoing everything for the then-new C2S spec.
@rwg @hugh Pragmatically speaking, that's true because people needed to build/show something. But there are gaps in the specs such that broad interop is technically not possible as it stands ( https://w3c.social/@csarven/114178482096355457 ). I'm not saying this to dismiss any work (especially one I was involved in since the days of Laconica/StatusNet). I'm coming from the perspective of how different classes of products can interoperate, regardless of the umbrella or spec "camp" they're part of on the web platform.
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Also #SocialHub #ActivityPub developer forum has a bunch of C2S-related topic. You can use the forum search facility.
SocialHub
Where ActivityPub developers coordinate their efforts to make the Fediverse a great space for cooperation
SocialHub (socialhub.activitypub.rocks)
A very detailed investigation on what is needed client-side can be found in the #AndStatus project. It was never completed AFAIK as there were among others no server implementations to test against.
Basic implementation of "client to server" ActivityPub protocol · Issue #499 · andstatus/andstatus
Note on current state (as of 2020-05-24) Pleroma Minimal "client to server" #ActivityPub implementation is available. It is tested at https://queer.hacktivis.me/AndStatus (that site has the latest Pleroma builds... some requests work at ...
GitHub (github.com)
@smallcircles
> what is needed client-side can be found in the AndStatus project ... there were among others no server implementations to test againstSeems like Pleroma had it working before mid-2020;
The Epicyon server has support for AP C2S too, so that could also be used to test apps trying to implement it;
Epicyon ActivityPub server
ActivityPub server written in Python, HTML and CSS, and suitable for self-hosting on single board computers
(libreserver.org)
Was any of this mentioned in the SH thread?
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@smallcircles
> what is needed client-side can be found in the AndStatus project ... there were among others no server implementations to test againstSeems like Pleroma had it working before mid-2020;
The Epicyon server has support for AP C2S too, so that could also be used to test apps trying to implement it;
Epicyon ActivityPub server
ActivityPub server written in Python, HTML and CSS, and suitable for self-hosting on single board computers
(libreserver.org)
Was any of this mentioned in the SH thread?
@strypey @smallcircles @skyfaller @hugh @bob https://rdf-pub.org is providing c2s. I started Testung with #andstatus but there where open questions regarding oauth if i remember right.
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@smallcircles
> what is needed client-side can be found in the AndStatus project ... there were among others no server implementations to test againstSeems like Pleroma had it working before mid-2020;
The Epicyon server has support for AP C2S too, so that could also be used to test apps trying to implement it;
Epicyon ActivityPub server
ActivityPub server written in Python, HTML and CSS, and suitable for self-hosting on single board computers
(libreserver.org)
Was any of this mentioned in the SH thread?
@strypey @skyfaller @hugh @bob
I did not mention a #SocialHub thread. There are multiple discussions where various aspects were discussed, that might still be useful. The search facility is best way to find them.
As for AndStatus the github issue lists their step-by-step progress in investigating what was needed, and what the challenges were. One of them was unavailibility of appropriate server back-ends to test against, mentioned *at the time* as challenge.
Would
️ more #ActivityPub C2S dev. -
@strypey @skyfaller @hugh @bob
I did not mention a #SocialHub thread. There are multiple discussions where various aspects were discussed, that might still be useful. The search facility is best way to find them.
As for AndStatus the github issue lists their step-by-step progress in investigating what was needed, and what the challenges were. One of them was unavailibility of appropriate server back-ends to test against, mentioned *at the time* as challenge.
Would
️ more #ActivityPub C2S dev.@smallcircles @strypey @skyfaller @bob My original question came from the POV of maintaining a, uh, server/client project and wanting to understand why projects aren’t providing server-side interfaces for clients to talk to using the C2S standard. It’s unsurprising there aren’t client projects if there’s nothing to talk to.
But the widely varying perspectives I’ve received are interesting. I was thinking more about pushing data to the server, many of the perceived problems seem to be more concerned with receiving data from the server.
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@smallcircles @strypey @skyfaller @bob My original question came from the POV of maintaining a, uh, server/client project and wanting to understand why projects aren’t providing server-side interfaces for clients to talk to using the C2S standard. It’s unsurprising there aren’t client projects if there’s nothing to talk to.
But the widely varying perspectives I’ve received are interesting. I was thinking more about pushing data to the server, many of the perceived problems seem to be more concerned with receiving data from the server.
@hugh @strypey @skyfaller @bob
There's renewed interest in C2S and it makes sense wrt current tech trends (local-first, p2p). Can be very useful if you kept a log of your adventures and observations to stimulate others. Would be great to have fresh discussions on SocialHub (where various categories are also federated via the Discourse AP plugin).
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@strypey @skyfaller @hugh @bob
I did not mention a #SocialHub thread. There are multiple discussions where various aspects were discussed, that might still be useful. The search facility is best way to find them.
As for AndStatus the github issue lists their step-by-step progress in investigating what was needed, and what the challenges were. One of them was unavailibility of appropriate server back-ends to test against, mentioned *at the time* as challenge.
Would
️ more #ActivityPub C2S dev.@smallcircles
> I did not mention a #SocialHub threadTrue. My mistake : )
> Would
️ more #ActivityPub C2S devAm I right in thinking SocialCG have been looking at improving standardisation on that front?
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@smallcircles
> I did not mention a #SocialHub threadTrue. My mistake : )
> Would
️ more #ActivityPub C2S devAm I right in thinking SocialCG have been looking at improving standardisation on that front?
@strypey @skyfaller @hugh @bob
> SocialCG
Certainly. And SocialHub with the FEP process. And countless other parties where people give their utmost to improve things. Very valiant efforts.
However there are 2 realities on fedi. One the near stalled (for 6 years!) open standards evolution. And the other where people implement new stuff that introduces protocol decay and tech debt. This increases 'whack-a-mole driven development' that's counter to and detrimental for broad interoperability.
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@strypey @smallcircles @skyfaller @hugh @bob https://rdf-pub.org is providing c2s. I started Testung with #andstatus but there where open questions regarding oauth if i remember right.
@naturzukunft
> rdf-pub.org is providing c2sAwesome, so that's at least 3 server packages to test clients against. Pleroma, Epicyon, and rdf-pub.org.
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@hugh According to one dev for GoToSocial:
"Implementing the C2S API is, I'm afraid, really out of the question, as it's totally underdefined, relies on the client to do almost everything, and would be an absolute nightmare project for us. That's a non-starter."
[feature] Dedicated GoToSocial client
gotosocial - Fast, fun, small ActivityPub server.
Codeberg.org (codeberg.org)
@skyfaller @hugh relying on the client IS the point. It gives people sovereignty over their Fedi presence, and leaves the processing and other server things for the server.
