exactly. so I'm wondering what the purpose is for its need.

(edit: apologies- the phone number. needing the phone number.)

The only thing I don't like about Session is, it runs on a underlying crypto token, incentivizing the network to keep on going. https://getsession.org/blog/migrating-from-the-oxen-network-to-session-network imo

It's super cathartic, I agree. Feels extra good when it's big tech and fascist-owned as well.

The exit plan from WhatsApp is quite simple. Start by installing Signal and setting it up – it takes only a couple of minutes. Then, resume any WhatsApp conversations on Signal if that person is already a Signal user. If they are not, then switch to regular text messaging and gently suggest to that person to switch over to Signal.

Sadly for me, this doesn't really work for some relatives as

• They live abroad and the cost of sending text messages abroad is not insignificant
• Some are so tech un-savvy that even installing a new app by themselves is too much.

All I can do for those relatives is to leave WhatsApp installed but take away basically every permission I can, including running in the background.

Yeah someone who cares enough about security to switch to Signal in the first place will be willing to go into the settings to get everything just the way they like it, but everybody else will only keep the app if it doesn't bug them.

They live abroad and the cost of sending text messages abroad is not insignificant

Signal is free just like whats app. For text, calls, and video. So that isn't a problem.

I too have friends and family in different countries, one of which is crazy about whatsapp. I simply tell them this is how we are going to do things now, and walk them through it. It is not hard. If they can't do it, well then we don't need to communicate this way. Whatsapp is not an option. It is that simple.

What? You use a secure messenger to send secure messages. It doesn't make sense for a secure messenger to offer sending insecure messages (SMS).

Edit: oh, you're probably referring to why it requires a phone number. This seems to be due to abuse/spam prevention, as otherwise creating new accounts to spam people with is basically free.

Could you explain a bit? I see main issue with Signal (though I'm not an expert, and they're not strictly related to security): it's centralized (and the server isn't even open-source).

The question is also a lot about your threat model right?

using the phone number is still a pretty unnecessary risk, imho.

there's no real need for it any longer.

Do you have a better approach to prevent spam in mind? Without a barrier of entry it becomes a serious issue.

Signal is not capable of SMS and quite a lot of people still use it.

yes, i know SMS isn't secure at all. but if the option is "keep in touch with close family" or "don't keep in touch" they will probably choose the former if they want to keep that.

Forgot- you gotta add their repo.

Download Molly | F-Droid

Molly is an improved Signal app for Android

(molly.im)

Spam prevention? Ive got spam on Signal. Having your phone number be the barrier of entry doesn't make Signal a flawless app.

and considering i can just plug a google voice number in, I'm not sure its the best barrier.

I would rather SMS than use WhatsApp. But even then if my family is far away, why am texting them at all very often? With the time zone differences I'll call or email, or nothing. It's weird how people got along just fine with letters that took weeks and suddenly we now need instant communication for some reason?

I tried switching my family over, but being unable to install it on a second device or tablet was a deal breaker.

I can't call ethical an app that relies on Electron.

How did they get WhatsApp installed? Is a FaceTime or other video option available? Never give up, never surrender

I wish I could do this, but trying to convince people to ditch an app they've never had problems with and where they all have their family, friends, work groups and school groups already mashed together, how do you convince them? Its not even about me convincing my friends or family, its about everyone else doing the same and when everyone has so many contacts in WhatsApp, that number starts to snowball real quick. Its just not feasible to try and explain this to someone who literally doesn't care. I mean even though I myself know what Meta is and how Zuck is complete asshole, I still can't switch off of WhatsApp because nobody I know is on Signal and I'd just be alone there. What's the point? WhatsApp is pretty much the first app anyone installs on their phone (regardless of platform), they're not gonna switch now.

How is that weird? You can be fine with suboptimal stuff, and recognize it's suboptimal. Some people like their relatives and wished they could talk together more readily. Letters were just the fastest (while economical) method of doing that for a while.

The encryption being crap really does not depend on the threat model. Sure, in some threat models you may not need e2ee at all but in that case, what's wrong with WhatsApp?

The issue with XMPP is that security really was an afterthought. Not only is e2ee an optional extension, but there are actually 2 incompatible extensions, each with multiple versions. Then you have some clients not implementing either, some clients implementing the older, less secure one. Some implement the newer one but older version of the spec with known issues. And of course, the few clients that implement it well become incompatible with other clients that don't if you enable e2ee, so it is disabled by default.

That is all before you start looking into security audits or metadata harvesting.