I will use the opportunity to remind that Signal is operated by a non-profit in the jurisdiction called "the US". This could have implications.

A somewhat more anarchist option might be TOX. There is no single client, TOX is a protocol, you can choose from half a dozen clients. I personally use qTox.

Upside: no phone number required. No questions asked.

Downside: no servers to store and forward messages. You can talk if both parties are online.

SimpleX as well!

How about Delta Chat? At least as secure as Signal, open source, and decentralized.

Spam isn't a binary issue, where it either exists or doesn't. It could very well be the case that, without requiring a phone number, there'd be far more spam (since it'd be far easier to automatically create new accounts).

Again, do you have a better suggestion for spam & abuse prevention?

And still, aside from that - it doesn't really make sense to expect Signal to offer SMS integration just because it requires a phone number for spam prevention, when offering this integration would be detrimental towards the mission of Signal (offering secure messages).

it does make sense, actually. as they had that function when the app was first around. why do you think they have you sign up with a phone number in the first place?

also, it's not on me to solve every technical hurdle you make up. if you want to learn more about Spam Prevention methods, I can point you to some resources if you're truly interested.

I'm sorry that not everyone thinks Signal is a god app worthy of worship. its a message app, and its not the only one. it does stuff some people don't like. including me.

How do we know signal isn’t also run by a techbro who just wants our data?

So much cope you didn't even notice no one mentioned matrix. We are comparing XMPP with Signal.

Your reasoning would hold up if 80% of xmpp wasn't running on Conversations or forks of it

Also, you really think saying only 20% of your chats are insecure is somehow making it better?

Hell yeah. Tox continues to rock. If anyone wants to chat, HMU, here's my key:

fdd7005639c618263ab2eedab974f7576c7c0ded6217eed9e9dc0344c622e72aeef7055f8b4d

How do we know signal isn’t also run by a techbro who just wants our data?

WhatsApp is pretty much the first app anyone installs on their phone

Is this really the case?

Maybe it's a regional thing. I'm in the northeast US, and nearly everyone I know uses Facebook Messenger as their main form of communication, even people who don't touch Facebook at all. I hate Messenger for the same reasons that people hate WhatsApp, but I still have to use it because my entire social circle does. If I want to message someone outside Messenger without giving my phone number out, I use my Google Voice number.

I've only ever used WhatsApp to talk to work contacts overseas, and I've only ever used Signal to talk to paranoid drug dealers, which is a use case that's mostly been replaced by Telegram now.

FYI, while Threema front-end clients (apps) are open-source (and offer reproducible builds, which is surprisingly uncommon in open-source land), the server component, though supposedly audited, remains closed-source.

EDIT: for comparison, the Signal server code is mostly open source, but things like the spam filter are closed.

why do you think they have you sign up with a phone number in the first place?

Again, spam & abuse prevention. We've been over this.

I’m sorry that not everyone thinks Signal is a god app worthy of worship. its a message app, and its not the only one. it does stuff some people don’t like. including me.

I'm not saying that Signal is a god app worthy of worship, I'm saying it's detrimental for them to include SMS functionality, since that's fundamentally insecure. That's literally why they removed it. Is that so hard to understand?

After Trump was elected and inaugurated, Signal has finally been gaining some steam here in the Netherlands.

It's still an American company, so it's not ideal. But it's still significantly better better than letting a tech giant like Facebook have control over the most commonly used chat app.

WhatsApp needs to go and Signal is the most likely way in which we can achieve that. We can worry about the American elephant in the room later.

I will use the opportunity to remind that Signal is operated by a non-profit in the jurisdiction called "the US". This could have implications.

A somewhat more anarchist option might be TOX. There is no single client, TOX is a protocol, you can choose from half a dozen clients. I personally use qTox.

Upside: no phone number required. No questions asked.

Downside: no servers to store and forward messages. You can talk if both parties are online.

You can use Signal with a different client. Signal being operated within the US has no effect. As of now the jurisdictions that I know of to be worried about are:

The UK, where Apple was recently ordered to remove end-to-end encryption features, and have been gagged from talking about it

Sweden, where a law is proposed to add an encryption backdoor

The EU, where leadership is pushing for an encryption backdoor

My understanding is that the Indian government under the BJP and Congress has been pretty consistently anti-encryption, and violated privacy rights

France arrested the founder of Telegram for using end to end encryption in Telegram

Australia in 2018 passed a law that enabled the government to require communications platforms add a backdoor for government decryption. The Director of the Australian Security Intelligence Organisation (ASIO) said that “privacy is important but not absolute”. Which has the same vibes as "this is not about human rights, this is about human life."

WhatsApp was previously suspended in Brazil for refusing to hand over decrypted messages.

Austria is in the process of passing legislation allowing police to backdoor encryption in messaging apps

China and Russia are very obvious problems. Here's an easy one of many examples

The White House both in Trump's first term and in Biden's presidency were pro-encryption. Signal and Tor were US government funded projects. That's not to say the US is great on encryption, and there have been laws in the past that did/were proposed to limit it. But, as of now, it seems that the US is (edit: one of) the most hospitable jurisdictions for encrypted messaging non-profits.

BTW, I'm not saying using Tox is bad, or that Signal is good, I'm just talking about the US jurisdiction part.

Not sure if you're actually sincere or are sarcastically making fun of Tox's onboarding. That's a long key.

You can use Signal with a different client.

Can you advise, which one would be a good one? Because I actually use Signal too, it's just misbehaving a lot recently.

I have had endless difficulties with Signal forcing upgrades on me and requiring to sign in on the phone, under threat of deactivating my account (I use it on a PC).

Anyone know why the Signal app isn't available on F-Droid? Isn't it supposed to be open source?