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Microsoft’s Recall feature is still threat to privacy despite recent tweaks

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  • It is a stereotype but Apple diehards seem to go along with whatever Apple pushes, and people who don't like them don't use them anyways. Meanwhile Windows and Linux seems to have more people who are nitpicky about what they use, so group that tends to complain is going to be complaining more loudly about the OS they use would be my guess.

    I do think you have a point about how Apple users tend to live with Apple choices while everybody else mostly ignores them. I think this manifests in less of a taking sides thing. Linux activists definitely root against Windows, sometimes more than they root for Linux, and they certainly don't put the same amount of energy on Apple hostility.

    I think this is wider than that, though. Linux and Apple users aren't nearly as focused on their own quirks and foibles, but everybody loves to dunk on MS. Not that I don't, necessarily, but sometimes the difference in attitude jumps at me.

    It's not just them, either. There's a subset of companies, like Epic or Mozilla that get this a lot. It's more so in gaming circles (EA! Ubisoft! Activision!) but not just there.

  • I do think you have a point about how Apple users tend to live with Apple choices while everybody else mostly ignores them. I think this manifests in less of a taking sides thing. Linux activists definitely root against Windows, sometimes more than they root for Linux, and they certainly don't put the same amount of energy on Apple hostility.

    I think this is wider than that, though. Linux and Apple users aren't nearly as focused on their own quirks and foibles, but everybody loves to dunk on MS. Not that I don't, necessarily, but sometimes the difference in attitude jumps at me.

    It's not just them, either. There's a subset of companies, like Epic or Mozilla that get this a lot. It's more so in gaming circles (EA! Ubisoft! Activision!) but not just there.

    Linux activists definitely root against Windows

    That is at least in part because Windows has actively undermined Linux for years, and the older ones of us also remember M$ killing OS/2 (&Novell on tge server side) and learnt our lesson not to trust them even when it looks like they're playing nice

  • In fairness they’re not the same thing - recall records everything you do making a nice single honeypot of all your actions. Apple’s thing is really just a search bar that can reach into apps like email, calendar, etc - it’s not recording your bank logins. Google Play Services tracks everything you do on Android and sells it to advertisers.

  • Linux activists definitely root against Windows

    That is at least in part because Windows has actively undermined Linux for years, and the older ones of us also remember M$ killing OS/2 (&Novell on tge server side) and learnt our lesson not to trust them even when it looks like they're playing nice

    Corporations aren't people. Brands aren't people.

    I feel like in these online conversations where everybody is mostly just viscerally reacting to a headline people forget that a lot, and that worries me about as much as the underlying subjects of conversation.

    I'll be honest, I'm about as exhausted with both sides of that argument. I use both Linux and Windows daily and I have zero patience for people parading out this type of train of thought. I care about what works and, for obvious reasons, I'd much prefer if the effective default was free and open source, but the "We root against Windows because it was mean to us" thing is a borderline non-sequitur as far as I'm concerned.

  • In fairness they’re not the same thing - recall records everything you do making a nice single honeypot of all your actions. Apple’s thing is really just a search bar that can reach into apps like email, calendar, etc - it’s not recording your bank logins. Google Play Services tracks everything you do on Android and sells it to advertisers.

    It's a centralized search that can dig through your activity cross-platform and parses it through a centralized AI. Whether the data is stored in a log or as screenshots is a difference, but not as big of a difference as people make it out to be. It just feels intuitively weirder because one is humanly readable and the other one isn't.

    To be fair, that's my takeaway from a lot of AI backlash. A whole bunch of it is people finally getting an intuitive grasp on activities that big data has been doing for years or decades and it finally clicking into shock because they can anthropomorphise the inputs and outputs better.

    No wonder the techbros have lost their intuititon for what will trigger backlash. In many cases they've been doing far worse than those things with zero awareness or pushback.

  • It also probably helps that it is easy to ignore Apple and there might not be a feeling of missing out for those who don't care for the Apple ecosystem. As big as Apple is it is kind of niche in the sense that a Windows or Linux user can just ignore its existence and not feel affected.

    But, when it comes to Windows there's lot of mainstream software, games, and even hardware compatibility that is affected by Windows dominance. Stuff like wine and proton being needed and not getting the same video card driver support leads to more resentment Windows actually having offerings people who tend to complain want.

  • Corporations aren't people. Brands aren't people.

    I feel like in these online conversations where everybody is mostly just viscerally reacting to a headline people forget that a lot, and that worries me about as much as the underlying subjects of conversation.

    I'll be honest, I'm about as exhausted with both sides of that argument. I use both Linux and Windows daily and I have zero patience for people parading out this type of train of thought. I care about what works and, for obvious reasons, I'd much prefer if the effective default was free and open source, but the "We root against Windows because it was mean to us" thing is a borderline non-sequitur as far as I'm concerned.

    Setting aside the fact that legally a corporation actually is a person, there is such a thing as a corporate culture, and a corporate ethos.

    Let's start with an old microsoft ethos: embrace extend extinguish

    Now don't try to tell me I made it up, there's enough evidence for it to have its own wiki page.

    Similarly there's FUD an approach they most certainly didnt invent but did an excellent job of weaponising to a fine art.

    And so on and so forth. Those of us who have been around a while know the true shape of it, and that leopard has never changed its spots.

    I got my MCSE on NT4 back when CNE was much more respected. I still work in IT so yes I too use both windows & linux, that doesn't stop me having a clear eyed view of them.

    They're also not the worst by a long chalk, google, meta, palantir are all far less principled and far more detrimental to society.

    M$ still arent good though, and its woven into their culture

  • It also probably helps that it is easy to ignore Apple and there might not be a feeling of missing out for those who don't care for the Apple ecosystem. As big as Apple is it is kind of niche in the sense that a Windows or Linux user can just ignore its existence and not feel affected.

    But, when it comes to Windows there's lot of mainstream software, games, and even hardware compatibility that is affected by Windows dominance. Stuff like wine and proton being needed and not getting the same video card driver support leads to more resentment Windows actually having offerings people who tend to complain want.

    I think there's something to the idea that Apple walls its garden so well people outside the wall don't care about what happens inside it even when they disagree with it on principle.

    I think you're underplaying how big the garden is, though. You are thinking about this just in terms of PC OSs, but that's not where Apple's biggest presence is.

  • One could argue that it's a feature that could be done on-client without sending to a server. Or with its server component doing nothing more than syncing with E2E encryption.

    I have zero interest in Recall, but I thought it was already done on-device? IIRC it always was that way, which is why it's only available on new computers containing dedicated "neural coprocessors" I believe was the term.

    Now given that it's closed source, you have to trust that they aren't silently sending data back to themselves - which is where my problem lies, I don't trust them in the slightest.

  • Part of why i knew so-called "digital rights management" was fucking bullshit was because very little software ever came out that empowered me to manage MY OWN rights in the digital space.

    I need there to be FOSS applications that allow me to root-level BLOCK applications from perceiving what I'm doing, to just fucking SANDBOX ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING BY DEFAULT and let me whitelist what specific things are allowed to directly access the hardware.

    Sadly I am not as tech savvy as I used to think I was. I might've been technologically clever twenty years ago but I hadn't managed to keep up... I think what I've described might be referred to as a "hypervisor"? And I'm told it's an overbearing, clumsy, heavy-handed overkill measure that would be difficult to implement and make everything a pain in the ass to do. So ... shit, man, I dunno... i'm just so damn tired of my hardware being bossed around by people I didn't authorize.

    A "hypervisor" is more applicable to servers than anything else, but I agree with you on everything else. That first sentence, man... Big companies get DRM for their property, so where's my DRM, y'know?

    Fucking maddening.

  • The worst thing about it is, even if you switch to Linux for privacy yourself, you'll also need your friends to switch as well, otherwise if you message them on their desktop, they're a liability, as the damn recall will be there too, leaking your data.

    It'll be hell for activists.

    The same has been true of email for years, but less bad. Activists will need to be even more careful in who they trust.

  • Yes.

    Worth it.

  • I have zero interest in Recall, but I thought it was already done on-device? IIRC it always was that way, which is why it's only available on new computers containing dedicated "neural coprocessors" I believe was the term.

    Now given that it's closed source, you have to trust that they aren't silently sending data back to themselves - which is where my problem lies, I don't trust them in the slightest.

    You can verify that nothing is being sent back by watching network traffic. I guess they could hide it in update packets, but thats pretty unlikely.

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    I've disabled windows update completely so I can pick and manually dl updates. Never going to put that recall shit on my pc.

  • Of course it is. It's invasive by design. The "recent tweaks" were because of backlash, but now that's died down

    on purpose. they announce something absurd, so people get mad, and they step down to something they wanted anyway (and even pass the impression they are listening to their users opinions)

  • I have zero interest in Recall, but I thought it was already done on-device? IIRC it always was that way, which is why it's only available on new computers containing dedicated "neural coprocessors" I believe was the term.

    Now given that it's closed source, you have to trust that they aren't silently sending data back to themselves - which is where my problem lies, I don't trust them in the slightest.

    I'll admit I've not looked into it. My computer won't even upgrade to Windows 11 if I wanted it to, thanks to MS's artificial restriction on compatibility. Maybe it is all on-device. But if so, whence all the privacy complaints? And does it not allow syncing between devices?

  • The worst thing about it is, even if you switch to Linux for privacy yourself, you'll also need your friends to switch as well, otherwise if you message them on their desktop, they're a liability, as the damn recall will be there too, leaking your data.

    It'll be hell for activists.

    Funnily enough, Signal has circumvented the issue by marking their chat window as DRM content, making it invisible to Recall.

  • I think there's something to the idea that Apple walls its garden so well people outside the wall don't care about what happens inside it even when they disagree with it on principle.

    I think you're underplaying how big the garden is, though. You are thinking about this just in terms of PC OSs, but that's not where Apple's biggest presence is.

    I got apple devices, but it is more a take or leave it type situation where I wouldn't feel like I'm missing out if I didn't have them. Its just one of those nice options, but not irreplaceable tech to me.

  • Honestly it's what drove me over the edge. I'm on endeavorOS and it has been great honestly. Would recommend 👍🏻

  • I've disabled windows update completely so I can pick and manually dl updates. Never going to put that recall shit on my pc.

    How'd you do that? I've made registry tweaks, group policy tweaks, etc and my windows machine still eventually hits a limit where it forces updates around the 12 week mark. Granted it's still longer than before, it isn't completely disabled.

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    Lots of people have kids nowadays in their houses, we should ban all of that and out them all in a specialized center or something. I can't imagine what all those people are doing with kids behind close doors under he guise of "family". Truly scary if you think about it.
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    (Premise - suppose I accept that there is such a definable thing as capitalism) I'm not sure why you feel the need to state this in a discussion that already assumes it as a necessary precondition of, but, uh, you do you. People blaming capitalism for everything then build a country that imports grain, while before them and after them it’s among the largest exporters on the planet (if we combine Russia and Ukraine for the “after” metric, no pun intended). ...what? What does this have to do with literally anything, much less my comment about innovation/competition? Even setting aside the wild-assed assumptions you're making about me criticizing capitalism means I 'blame [it] for everything', this tirade you've launched into, presumably about Ukraine and the USSR, has no bearing on anything even tangentially related to this conversation. People praising capitalism create conditions in which there’s no reason to praise it. Like, it’s competitive - they kill competitiveness with patents, IP, very complex legal systems. It’s self-regulating and self-optimizing - they make regulations and do bailouts preventing sick companies from dying, make laws after their interests, then reactively make regulations to make conditions with them existing bearable, which have a side effect of killing smaller companies. Please allow me to reiterate: ...what? Capitalists didn't build literally any of those things, governments did, and capitalists have been trying to escape, subvert, or dismantle those systems at every turn, so this... vain, confusing attempt to pin a medal on capitalism's chest for restraining itself is not only wrong, it fails to understand basic facts about history. It's the opposite of self-regulating because it actively seeks to dismantle regulations (environmental, labor, wage, etc), and the only thing it optimizes for is the wealth of oligarchs, and maybe if they're lucky, there will be a few crumbs left over for their simps. That’s the problem, both “socialist” and “capitalist” ideal systems ignore ape power dynamics. I'm going to go ahead an assume that 'the problem' has more to do with assuming that complex interacting systems can be simplified to 'ape (or any other animal's) power dynamics' than with failing to let the richest people just do whatever they want. Such systems should be designed on top of the fact that jungle law is always allowed So we should just be cool with everybody being poor so Jeff Bezos or whoever can upgrade his megayacht to a gigayacht or whatever? Let me say this in the politest way I know how: LOL no. Also, do you remember when I said this? ‘Won’t someone please think of the billionaires’ is wearing kinda thin You know, right before you went on this very long-winded, surreal, barely-coherent ramble? Did you imagine I would be convinced by literally any of it when all it amounts to is one giant, extraneous, tedious equivalent of 'Won't someone please think of the billionaires?' Simp harder and I bet maybe you can get a crumb or two yourself.
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