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I'm looking for an article showing that LLMs don't know how they work internally

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  • If all you're saying is that neural networks could develop consciousness one day, sure, and nothing I said contradicts that. Our brains are neural networks, so it stands to reason they could do what our brains can do. But the technical hurdles are huge.

    You need at least two things to get there:

    1. Enough computing power to support it.
    2. Insight into how consciousness is structured.

    1 is hard because a single brain alone is about as powerful as a significant chunk of worldwide computing, the gulf between our current power and what we would need is about... 100% of what we would need. We are so woefully under resourced for that. You also need to solve how to power the computers without cooking the planet, which is not something we're even close to solving currently.

    2 means that we can't just throw more power or training at the problem. Modern NN modules have an underlying theory that makes them work. They're essentially statistical curve-fitting machines. We don't currently have a good theoretical model that would allow us to structure the NN to create a consciousness. It's not even on the horizon yet.

    Those are two enormous hurdles. I think saying modern NN design can create consciousness is like Jules Verne in 1867 saying we can get to the Moon with a cannon because of "what progress artillery science has made in the last few years".

    Moon rockets are essentially artillery science in many ways, yes, but Jules Verne was still a century away in terms of supporting technologies, raw power, and essential insights into how to do it.

    We're on the same page about consciousness then. My original comment only pointed out that current AI have problems that we have because they replicate how we work and it seems that people don't like recognising that very obvious fact that we have the exact problems that LLMs have. LLMs aren't rational because we inherently are not rational. That was the only point I was originally trying to make.

    For AGI or UGI to exist, massive hurdles will need to be made, likely an entire restructuring of it. I think LLMs will continue to get smarter and likely exceed us but it will not be perfect without a massive rework.

    Personally and this is pure speculation, I wouldn't be surprised if AGI or UGI is only possible with the help of a highly advanced AI. Similar to how microbiologist are only now starting to unravel protein synthesis with the help of AI. I think the shear volume of data that needs processing requires something like a highly evolved AI to understand, and that current technology is purely a stepping stone for something more.

  • We're on the same page about consciousness then. My original comment only pointed out that current AI have problems that we have because they replicate how we work and it seems that people don't like recognising that very obvious fact that we have the exact problems that LLMs have. LLMs aren't rational because we inherently are not rational. That was the only point I was originally trying to make.

    For AGI or UGI to exist, massive hurdles will need to be made, likely an entire restructuring of it. I think LLMs will continue to get smarter and likely exceed us but it will not be perfect without a massive rework.

    Personally and this is pure speculation, I wouldn't be surprised if AGI or UGI is only possible with the help of a highly advanced AI. Similar to how microbiologist are only now starting to unravel protein synthesis with the help of AI. I think the shear volume of data that needs processing requires something like a highly evolved AI to understand, and that current technology is purely a stepping stone for something more.

    We don't have the same problems LLMs have.

    LLMs have zero fidelity. They have no - none - zero - model of the world to compare their output to.

    Humans have biases and problems in our thinking, sure, but we're capable of at least making corrections and working with meaning in context. We can recognise our model of the world and how it relates to the things we are saying.

    LLMs cannot do that job, at all, and they won't be able to until they have a model of the world. A model of the world would necessarily include themselves, which is self-awareness, which is AGI. That's a meaning-understander. Developing a world model is the same problem as consciousness.

    What I'm saying is that you cannot develop fidelity at all without AGI, so no, LLMs don't have the same problems we do. That is an entirely different class of problem.

    Some moon rockets fail, but they don't have that in common with moon cannons. One of those can in theory achieve a moon landing and the other cannot, ever, in any iteration.

  • LOL you didn't really make the point you thought you did. It isn't an "improper comparison" (it's called a false equivalency FYI), because there isn't a real distinction between information and this thing you just made up called "basic action on data", but anyway have it your way:

    Your comment is still exactly like saying an audio pipeline isn't really playing music because it's actually just doing basic math.

    I was channeling the Interstellar docking computer (“improper contact” in such a sassy voice) 😉

    There is a distinction between data and an action you perform on data (matrix maths, codec algorithm, etc.). It’s literally completely different.

    An audio codec (not a pipeline) is just actually doing math - just like the workings of an LLM. There’s plenty of work to be done after the audio codec decodes the m4a to get to tunes in your ears. Same for an LLM, sandwiching those matrix multiplications that make the magic happen are layers that crunch the prompts and assemble the tokens you see it spit out.

    LLMs can’t think, that’s just the fact of how they work. The problem is that AI companies are happy to describe them in terms that make you think they can think to sell their product! I literally cannot be wrong that LLMs cannot think or reason, there’s no room for debate, it’s settled long ago. AI companies will string the LLMs together and let them chew for a while to try make themselves catch when they’re dropping bullshit. It’s still not thinking and reasoning though. They can be useful tools, but LLMs are just tools not sentient or verging on sentient

  • Do LLMs not exhibit emergent behaviour? But who am I, a simple skin-bag of chemicals, to really say.

    They do not, and I, a simple skin-bag of chemicals (mostly water tho) do say

  • People that can not do Matrix multiplication do not possess the basic concepts of intelligence now? Or is software that can do matrix multiplication intelligent?

    So close, LLMs work via matrix multiplication, which is well understood by many meat bags and matrix math can’t think. If a meat bag can’t do matrix math, that’s ok, because the meat bag doesn’t work via matrix multiplication. lol imagine forgetting how to do matrix multiplication and disappearing into a singularity or something

  • To write the second line, the model had to satisfy two constraints at the same time: the need to rhyme (with "grab it"), and the need to make sense (why did he grab the carrot?). Our guess was that Claude was writing word-by-word without much forethought until the end of the line, where it would make sure to pick a word that rhymes. We therefore expected to see a circuit with parallel paths, one for ensuring the final word made sense, and one for ensuring it rhymes.

    Instead, we found that Claude plans ahead. Before starting the second line, it began "thinking" of potential on-topic words that would rhyme with "grab it". Then, with these plans in mind, it writes a line to end with the planned word.

    🙃 actually read the research?

    No, they’re right. The “research” is biased by the company that sells the product and wants to hype it. Many layers don’t make think or reason, but they’re glad to put them in quotes that they hope peeps will forget were there.

  • So close, LLMs work via matrix multiplication, which is well understood by many meat bags and matrix math can’t think. If a meat bag can’t do matrix math, that’s ok, because the meat bag doesn’t work via matrix multiplication. lol imagine forgetting how to do matrix multiplication and disappearing into a singularity or something

    Well, on the other hand. Meat bags can't really do neuron stuff either, despite that is essential for any meat bag operation. Humans are still here though and so are dogs.

  • The environmental toll doesn’t have to be that bad. You can get decent results from single high-end gaming GPU.

    You can, but the stuff that’s really useful (very competent code completion) needs gigantic context lengths that even rich peeps with $2k GPUs can’t do. And that’s ignoring the training power and hardware costs to get the models.

    Techbros chasing VC funding are pushing LLMs to the physical limit of what humanity can provide power and hardware-wise. Way less hype and letting them come to market organically in 5/10 years would give the LLMs a lot more power efficiency at the current context and depth limits. But that ain’t this timeline, we just got VC money looking to buy nuclear plants and fascists trying to subdue the US for the techbro oligarchs womp womp

  • I was channeling the Interstellar docking computer (“improper contact” in such a sassy voice) 😉

    There is a distinction between data and an action you perform on data (matrix maths, codec algorithm, etc.). It’s literally completely different.

    An audio codec (not a pipeline) is just actually doing math - just like the workings of an LLM. There’s plenty of work to be done after the audio codec decodes the m4a to get to tunes in your ears. Same for an LLM, sandwiching those matrix multiplications that make the magic happen are layers that crunch the prompts and assemble the tokens you see it spit out.

    LLMs can’t think, that’s just the fact of how they work. The problem is that AI companies are happy to describe them in terms that make you think they can think to sell their product! I literally cannot be wrong that LLMs cannot think or reason, there’s no room for debate, it’s settled long ago. AI companies will string the LLMs together and let them chew for a while to try make themselves catch when they’re dropping bullshit. It’s still not thinking and reasoning though. They can be useful tools, but LLMs are just tools not sentient or verging on sentient

    There is a distinction between data and an action you perform on data (matrix maths, codec algorithm, etc.). It’s literally completely different.

    Incorrect. You might want to take an information theory class before speaking on subjects like this.

    I literally cannot be wrong that LLMs cannot think or reason, there’s no room for debate, it’s settled long ago.

    Lmao yup totally, it's not like this type of research currently gets huge funding at universities and institutions or anything like that 😂 it's a dead research field because it's already "settled". (You're wrong 🤭)

    LLMs are just tools not sentient or verging on sentient

    Correct. No one claimed they are "sentient" (you actually mean "sapient", not "sentient", but it's fine because people commonly mix these terms up. Sentience is about the physical senses. If you can respond to stimuli from your environment, you're sentient, if you can "I think, therefore I am", you're sapient). And no, LLMs are not sapient either, and sapience has nothing to do with neural networks' ability to mathematically reason or use logic, you're just moving the goalpost. But at least you moved it far enough to be actually correct?

  • There is a distinction between data and an action you perform on data (matrix maths, codec algorithm, etc.). It’s literally completely different.

    Incorrect. You might want to take an information theory class before speaking on subjects like this.

    I literally cannot be wrong that LLMs cannot think or reason, there’s no room for debate, it’s settled long ago.

    Lmao yup totally, it's not like this type of research currently gets huge funding at universities and institutions or anything like that 😂 it's a dead research field because it's already "settled". (You're wrong 🤭)

    LLMs are just tools not sentient or verging on sentient

    Correct. No one claimed they are "sentient" (you actually mean "sapient", not "sentient", but it's fine because people commonly mix these terms up. Sentience is about the physical senses. If you can respond to stimuli from your environment, you're sentient, if you can "I think, therefore I am", you're sapient). And no, LLMs are not sapient either, and sapience has nothing to do with neural networks' ability to mathematically reason or use logic, you're just moving the goalpost. But at least you moved it far enough to be actually correct?

    It’s wild, we’re just completely talking past each other at this point! I don’t think I’ve ever gotten to a point where I’m like “it’s blue” and someone’s like “it’s gold” so clearly. And like I know enough to know what I’m talking about and that I’m not wrong (unis are not getting tons of grants to see “if AI can think”, no one but fart sniffing AI bros would fund that (see OP’s requested source is from an AI company about their own model), research funding goes towards making useful things not if ChatGPT is really going through it like the rest of us), but you are very confident in yourself as well. Your mention of information theory leads me to believe you’ve got a degree in the computer science field. The basis of machine learning is not in computer science but in stats (math). So I won’t change my understanding based on your claims since I don’t think you deeply know the basis just the application. The focus on using the “right words” as a gotchya bolsters that vibe. I know you won’t change your thoughts based on my input, so we’re at the age-old internet stalemate! Anyway, just wanted you to know why I decided not to entertain what you’ve been saying - I’m sure I’m in the same boat from your perspective 😉

  • It’s wild, we’re just completely talking past each other at this point! I don’t think I’ve ever gotten to a point where I’m like “it’s blue” and someone’s like “it’s gold” so clearly. And like I know enough to know what I’m talking about and that I’m not wrong (unis are not getting tons of grants to see “if AI can think”, no one but fart sniffing AI bros would fund that (see OP’s requested source is from an AI company about their own model), research funding goes towards making useful things not if ChatGPT is really going through it like the rest of us), but you are very confident in yourself as well. Your mention of information theory leads me to believe you’ve got a degree in the computer science field. The basis of machine learning is not in computer science but in stats (math). So I won’t change my understanding based on your claims since I don’t think you deeply know the basis just the application. The focus on using the “right words” as a gotchya bolsters that vibe. I know you won’t change your thoughts based on my input, so we’re at the age-old internet stalemate! Anyway, just wanted you to know why I decided not to entertain what you’ve been saying - I’m sure I’m in the same boat from your perspective 😉

    loses the argument "we’re at the age-old internet stalemate!" LMAO

  • loses the argument "we’re at the age-old internet stalemate!" LMAO

    Indeed I did not, we’re at a stalemate because you and I do not believe what the other is saying! So we can’t move anywhere since it’s two walls. Buuuut Tim Apple got my back for once, just saw this now!: https://lemmy.blahaj.zone/post/27197259

    I’ll leave it at that, as thanks to that white paper I win! Yay internet points!

  • What editor or IDE do you use and why?

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    KEIL, because I develop embedded systems.
  • Tech Company Recruiters Sidestep Trump’s Immigration Crackdown

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    "Hey ChatGPT, pretend to be an immigration attorney named Soo Park and answer these questions as if you're a criminal dipshit."
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    "unforseen hardware failure" somebody didn't check their backups!
  • A World Without iPhones?

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    I believe the world was a better place before smartphones started dominating everyone's attention. It has had a profound impact on how people are socializing, and not in a positive way if you ask me.
  • Catbox.moe got screwed 😿

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    archrecord@lemm.eeA
    I'll gladly give you a reason. I'm actually happy to articulate my stance on this, considering how much I tend to care about digital rights. Services that host files should not be held responsible for what users upload, unless: The service explicitly caters to illegal content by definition or practice (i.e. the if the website is literally titled uploadyourcsamhere[.]com then it's safe to assume they deliberately want to host illegal content) The service has a very easy mechanism to remove illegal content, either when asked, or through simple monitoring systems, but chooses not to do so (catbox does this, and quite quickly too) Because holding services responsible creates a whole host of negative effects. Here's some examples: Someone starts a CDN and some users upload CSAM. The creator of the CDN goes to jail now. Nobody ever wants to create a CDN because of the legal risk, and thus the only providers of CDNs become shady, expensive, anonymously-run services with no compliance mechanisms. You run a site that hosts images, and someone decides they want to harm you. They upload CSAM, then report the site to law enforcement. You go to jail. Anybody in the future who wants to run an image sharing site must now self-censor to try and not upset any human being that could be willing to harm them via their site. A social media site is hosting the posts and content of users. In order to be compliant and not go to jail, they must engage in extremely strict filtering, otherwise even one mistake could land them in jail. All users of the site are prohibited from posting any NSFW or even suggestive content, (including newsworthy media, such as an image of bodies in a warzone) and any violation leads to an instant ban, because any of those things could lead to a chance of actually illegal content being attached. This isn't just my opinion either. Digital rights organizations such as the Electronic Frontier Foundation have talked at length about similar policies before. To quote them: "When social media platforms adopt heavy-handed moderation policies, the unintended consequences can be hard to predict. For example, Twitter’s policies on sexual material have resulted in posts on sexual health and condoms being taken down. YouTube’s bans on violent content have resulted in journalism on the Syrian war being pulled from the site. It can be tempting to attempt to “fix” certain attitudes and behaviors online by placing increased restrictions on users’ speech, but in practice, web platforms have had more success at silencing innocent people than at making online communities healthier." Now, to address the rest of your comment, since I don't just want to focus on the beginning: I think you have to actively moderate what is uploaded Catbox does, and as previously mentioned, often at a much higher rate than other services, and at a comparable rate to many services that have millions, if not billions of dollars in annual profits that could otherwise be spent on further moderation. there has to be swifter and stricter punishment for those that do upload things that are against TOS and/or illegal. The problem isn't necessarily the speed at which people can be reported and punished, but rather that the internet is fundamentally harder to track people on than real life. It's easy for cops to sit around at a spot they know someone will be physically distributing illegal content at in real life, but digitally, even if you can see the feed of all the information passing through the service, a VPN or Tor connection will anonymize your IP address in a manner that most police departments won't be able to track, and most three-letter agencies will simply have a relatively low success rate with. There's no good solution to this problem of identifying perpetrators, which is why platforms often focus on moderation over legal enforcement actions against users so frequently. It accomplishes the goal of preventing and removing the content without having to, for example, require every single user of the internet to scan an ID (and also magically prevent people from just stealing other people's access tokens and impersonating their ID) I do agree, however, that we should probably provide larger amounts of funding, training, and resources, to divisions who's sole goal is to go after online distribution of various illegal content, primarily that which harms children, because it's certainly still an issue of there being too many reports to go through, even if many of them will still lead to dead ends. I hope that explains why making file hosting services liable for user uploaded content probably isn't the best strategy. I hate to see people with good intentions support ideas that sound good in practice, but in the end just cause more untold harms, and I hope you can understand why I believe this to be the case.
  • Big Tech Wants to Become Its Own Bank

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    I know, I was just being snarky
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    Then that's changed since the last time I toyed with the idea. Which, granted, was probably 20 years ago...
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    Move fast and break people