I'm never going back to Matrix - Terence Eden
Technology
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I'll fight.
I haven't seen replies be useful at all, in fact they actively clutter the UI.
Editing and reactions are nice, but they're not that important.
IRC already has emoji support
and offline history sync, and is way smaller and faster.The one feature I like better on Matrix vs IRC clients is it is way easier to actually connect to the server. Just type in matrix.org or whatever it autofills for you, and you're in. No dealing with port numbers and proper syntax. This is an improvement.
I wanted to like matrix but it was too clunky for me. I wish more people used libera chat though, it is less active than it was 10 years ago or whatever.
Sorry, I keep responding to the wrong people with this new client
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You can use SimpleX for large chats. However, at least the current architecture is not the most efficient way of doing so. Especially not once rooms hit a thousand users or more. Does it work? Yes. Does it work well? Only somewhat. I think the developers were caught off guard when people wanted to start using it for large rooms instead of one-on-one communications and had not planned for that when they made the program.
They are addressing the issue by having devices connect to super peers instead of directly peer to peer in order to make large rooms work better. That way, instead of trying to maintain a thousand individual connections, your device might maintain two or three connections to Superpiers and get messages through them. I make it even harder on myself because I demand that my SimpleX do everything over a tor.
A thousand users seems like a lot; I'm not sure I've ever been in an IRC room with that many.
Is there a directory? IIRC the human naming part was still missing last time I tried it, and connecting through hashes was not very fun. The biggest blocker for me, though, was the lack of multiple device sync support. A single identity used across multiple devices concurrently is bare minimum feature, and is the reason I've always bounced off SimpleX. Has that been addressed?
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The awful spam was the reason I left, I got mass invited to rooms with really nasty names, and there's no way in the client to mass ignore invites, you have to go to each one and click ignore.
That wouldn't be the end of the world, except their client seems to rely on waiting for the server to respond to an action in the foreground, so every time I click ignore it sits there processing for like 10-20 seconds before I can click the next one. There's no select all, there's no way to just rapidly tap ignore and have it process in the background like it should be doing.
Also they said even after banning the accounts, there's no way on their end to remove the invites the banned account sent out.
Overall it's just painful to use, the clients are bad, the moderation system doesn't work (what kind of system lets 1 account send out thousands of invites?? It should have auto-banned them within the first 10 or something), their cleanup system doesn't work, and everything just feels slow as molasses.
I just deleted FluffyChat client since I got random invites to horrible named rooms. I’m sticking with Discord for now since I play Splatoon
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I'll fight.
I haven't seen replies be useful at all, in fact they actively clutter the UI.
Editing and reactions are nice, but they're not that important.
IRC already has emoji support
and offline history sync, and is way smaller and faster.The one feature I like better on Matrix vs IRC clients is it is way easier to actually connect to the server. Just type in matrix.org or whatever it autofills for you, and you're in. No dealing with port numbers and proper syntax. This is an improvement.
I wanted to like matrix but it was too clunky for me. I wish more people used libera chat though, it is less active than it was 10 years ago or whatever.
I haven't seen replies be useful at all, in fact they actively clutter the UI.
Editing and reactions are nice, but they're not that important.
Yeah, well, that's a massive opinion gulf we're never going to meet over.
IRC already has emoji support
and offline history sync, and is way smaller and faster.You can enter emojis into anything that supports UTF-8, and so can claim everything supports emojis. I haven't seen an IRC client with either an easy, integrated way to enter them, and I've also never seen an IRC client that will pull history from before I joined the room. Weechat certainly doesn't.
Matrix is super clunky, and the fact that the reference platform is a shitty Electron application sucks. Even if you use something sane like gomuks, your client is perpetually lagging in Matrix features, often by more than just months.
Matrix angers me. It's been such a mismanaged project. But I don't see IRC having changed much over the past 20 years that I've been using it.
Discord, on the other hand, is an active pestilence. I only open that stupid web page on the direst of need.
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We moved our instance Matrix to Zulip. It is much better now and makes peoples talk way more than on Matrix.
Looked this up out of curiosity and the fact that it will only somehow allow mobile notifications for "up to 10 users" even if self hosting for free, is putting me off. I get if you were using their cloud, but restricting self-hosting almost feels malicious.
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A thousand users seems like a lot; I'm not sure I've ever been in an IRC room with that many.
Is there a directory? IIRC the human naming part was still missing last time I tried it, and connecting through hashes was not very fun. The biggest blocker for me, though, was the lack of multiple device sync support. A single identity used across multiple devices concurrently is bare minimum feature, and is the reason I've always bounced off SimpleX. Has that been addressed?
There is a directory and you can find it by asking your favorite search engine for the SimpleX directory bot. As far as multiple devices goes, I'm not totally sure. I know that it's supposedly able to be used on multiple devices, but I only run it on my phone, so I haven't actually tried that functionality myself.
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Seeing lots of dislike for Matrix lately. Hosted a Synapse server for many years, never had issues with encryption keys, but have to agree that Element the company (formerly Vector, but they now control the protocol too?) rolls out more new things than they fix old ones. E.g: Element X is slower and calls are not backwards compatible (!). Synapse server keeps getting some (corporate-looking) auth stuff added while on-boarding and registration for plain accounts on self-hosted servers is still a pain. To give them credit, Element app is consistent across platforms (for purposes of convincing people and troubleshooting), and bridges work pretty well.
But it seems any self-hosted solution has its can of worms.
XMPP, being old, implements all modern-expected functionality as extensions, and servers are not guaranteed to have them (common argument). Spam was an issue as well (but simplicity of the on-device and server database allows easy message and attachment deletions). iOS clients for XMPP are meh and require integration with Apple push servers (Snikket and Monal do that, but for how long?)
Tried SimpleX years ago, loved the idea, but it was going through growing pains. In the same vein as metadata leaks for Matrix and XMPP, if you host your own SMP server with a few users, that exposes some info vs using default servers (along with thousands users)
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Looked this up out of curiosity and the fact that it will only somehow allow mobile notifications for "up to 10 users" even if self hosting for free, is putting me off. I get if you were using their cloud, but restricting self-hosting almost feels malicious.
Dunno I am not administrating it so I didn’t checked. We got the sponsorship tiers as a lemmy/piefed instance is an open source project https://zulip.com/help/self-hosted-billing#free-community-plan
I believe Rimu (piefed dev) also got the sponsorship.
I plan on using it for personal business projects (self hosted or not, it is not defined yet) to organize comms and plans in topics. But it’s a small team of way less than 10 and if it grows bigger than that it will means we have du money to upgrade (it won’t be eligible for sponsorship tho).
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piefed.social now has a Zulip server too although the Matrix rooms are still open. Seems like the tide is going out on Matrix though.
Yep, I didn’t join as I am only there for the general shit talking and not participating in any constructive or useful conversations (it’s a way of life) but Camus, Snoopy, Anansi, THE meerkat and probably others are participating with you on the piefed zulip and codeberg.
The jlailu matrix is still open but inactive and left to slowly wither and die, every sidebars are now linked to the zulip server instead of matrix.
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matrix sucks
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This one is probably one of the most disappointing one; Matrix had everything I wanted in terms of chat features. Programmability-wise, all it was an encrypted JSON sender/receiver, but in a good way. It basically could be extended however you want since it provided a useful primitive. But the encryption just randomly fails, and it's hard to figure out why, causing you to miss messages. I eventually gave up on building a side project for it.
i definitely encountered this in the past but element has constantly improved for my self hosted situation
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i've used fluffychat on desktop and android with zero problems.
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Whoa now, author sees a censoring filter as a most basic feature of a free and open chat infrastructure? It's not a social media client, you know? It was made for closed groups like governments and companies.
I use Fluffychat to talk with family and friends and for that it's good.
Edit: ok, looks like spam really is a problem.
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Whoa now, author sees a censoring filter as a most basic feature of a free and open chat infrastructure? It's not a social media client, you know? It was made for closed groups like governments and companies.
I use Fluffychat to talk with family and friends and for that it's good.
Edit: ok, looks like spam really is a problem.
It really needs audit tools. Many organizations/communities use matrix as communication tool and suffer from spam problems.
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This one is probably one of the most disappointing one; Matrix had everything I wanted in terms of chat features. Programmability-wise, all it was an encrypted JSON sender/receiver, but in a good way. It basically could be extended however you want since it provided a useful primitive. But the encryption just randomly fails, and it's hard to figure out why, causing you to miss messages. I eventually gave up on building a side project for it.
Same here - the encryption issues killed my project too, the problem is that Matrix's OLM/Megolm protocol implementation doesn't handle device verification and key distribution robustly enugh across multiple clients.
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There is a directory and you can find it by asking your favorite search engine for the SimpleX directory bot. As far as multiple devices goes, I'm not totally sure. I know that it's supposedly able to be used on multiple devices, but I only run it on my phone, so I haven't actually tried that functionality myself.
I loaded it up again. The progress is good, and I'm supportive of ðe effort! It is not ready for me to use, yet.
- I need it to be at least user friendly enough for my immediate family, and it's not, yet.
- It's still not concurrent. You have to hand off control between clients, and ðe desktop program (which is awesomely a terminal client!) has a confusing process for ðe hand-off.
- I utterly approve of a terminal client for myself, but it won't fly wiþ most of my family members. Ðis makes it effectively mobile-only for non-technical people, which is most of my social group.
Right now, Jami ticks all of the boxes and ðat's what we're using. Jami's development is painfully slow, with too little focus on delivery reliability, and I wouldn't be surprised if SimpleX overtakes it. SimpleX has improved even in ðe six monþs since I last tried it. It's really encouraging; it only needs a few more gaps filled, ðen I can inflict it on my F&F.
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Whoa now, author sees a censoring filter as a most basic feature of a free and open chat infrastructure? It's not a social media client, you know? It was made for closed groups like governments and companies.
I use Fluffychat to talk with family and friends and for that it's good.
Edit: ok, looks like spam really is a problem.
Matrix is commonly used for public, discoverable rooms, much like IRC or Discord. Perhaps it's not good for that use case, but the author seems to wish it was.
An effective spam prevention approach is a basic feature of any public communication service that reaches a certain size. Perhaps keyword filtering as the author suggests isn't the right approach, but some rate limits would help:
- Private messages from a new contact could notify just once until approved instead of once per message.
- Servers could limit the number of outstanding message requests, with a low limit for new accounts.
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Yes you're missing a lot. SimpleX even has a directory bot to find public group chats.
Is ðis right? In a group wiþ 6k members, each message posted to ðe group is 20MB of traffic? I suppose ðis is a consequence of ðe E2E design - a message posted sends a message to 6,000 people, individually encrypted and delivered?
Do you happen to know ðe plan for addressing ðat? It seems like a fairly large impediment, and I can't imagine what a solution would look like ðat preserves E2E.
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Same here - the encryption issues killed my project too, the problem is that Matrix's OLM/Megolm protocol implementation doesn't handle device verification and key distribution robustly enugh across multiple clients.
Right. It's not like other services have implemented it better though, or is there any? I don't think we should punish them for trying to do it in a more usable way than with signal
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The awful spam was the reason I left, I got mass invited to rooms with really nasty names, and there's no way in the client to mass ignore invites, you have to go to each one and click ignore.
That wouldn't be the end of the world, except their client seems to rely on waiting for the server to respond to an action in the foreground, so every time I click ignore it sits there processing for like 10-20 seconds before I can click the next one. There's no select all, there's no way to just rapidly tap ignore and have it process in the background like it should be doing.
Also they said even after banning the accounts, there's no way on their end to remove the invites the banned account sent out.
Overall it's just painful to use, the clients are bad, the moderation system doesn't work (what kind of system lets 1 account send out thousands of invites?? It should have auto-banned them within the first 10 or something), their cleanup system doesn't work, and everything just feels slow as molasses.
I was in the Cinny room at one point and it got spammed with CSAM at one point. It was traumatic.
