Men are opening up about mental health to AI instead of humans
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Then I get stuck on ... well they will rephrsse what I just said, and say/ask it back to me, and I'll say no, no I phrased what I said specifically, because I meant exactly that.
they're checking their own understanding by giving you an opportunity to correct them. by rephrasing it identically, it doesnt build any new understanding.
does it not matter to you to be understood by others? maybe that's why you're bashing therapy on the internet, asking for CBT worksheets instead of building rapport, and indirectly praising relationships with LLMs?
they're checking their own understanding by giving you an opportunity to correct them. by rephrasing it identically, it doesnt build any new understanding.
Yes, I understand the purpose of doing that... but they will rephrase it with different words, different meanings, leave out qualifiers, or add in qualifiers, etc.
Many times, the rephrasing doesn't change the meaning, and I agree, no problem.
But sometimes, specific wording or phrasing matters greatly.
I've found this is a concept many neurotypicals generally struggle with, that you can't always just reform a sentence into something easier to parse... because that can lose complexity and precision, and I am trying to convey something complex and precise.
And more often, when I object to my words being reformed... it is women who view my objection as aggressive, agitated, rude, hostile, combatative, etc.
does it not matter to you to be understood by others?
Broadly, I am well understood by most of the people I interact with.
Other than people clumsily trying to psychoanalyze me, and manipulative sociopath/narcissist types.
So no, I do not generally worry about my communication skills, as I have no problem communicating with the vast majority of people.
...
For instance... I am aware that I am often rather verbose, and tend to ramble... thats actually a sign that I feel comfortable, and trust whoever I am talking to.
I am also aware that this can be verbally, conversationally overwhelming with people who think it is rude to interrupt.
So I just tell people, hey, i have a tendency to ramble, I will not be offended at all if you interject and politely tell me to shut it, refocus, try to summarize, etc, when I am obviously rambling to tangential topics, or just telling a long story or something.
And this works very well with people who can gather the... courage? to do this, as I genuinely do not find it offensive.
But with people who are for whatever reason so timid that even after I've given them explicit permission to interrupt me... they still don't actually do it... well, they tend to be frustrated with me, overwhelmed.
Normally, thats fine, I don't need to be everyone's friend.
But when its someone who I basically have little or no choice but to communicate with that particulsr person... yes, this can lead to problems.
maybe that's why you're bashing therapy on the internet, asking for CBT worksheets instead of building rapport, and indirectly praising relationships with LLMs?
So for starters, I quite explicitly said that I think using LLMs for therapy is a 'fucking horrible idea', I just didn't expand on that as much... as to me this is fairly self evident and obvious.
So we now see that you are... doing the thing.
You are putting words in my mouth, because what I specifically said was evidently too complex for you to fully parse, and now you've reformulated it into a bastardized form that is actually contradictory to what I said.
Your poor reading comprehension skills are not my problem.
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Secondly... I am not bashing therapy broadly, I think it is a great concept when well executed and easily accessible.
CBT in particular is more than just a set of paperwork... it is often very helpful to have a therapist use CBT methods, guidr someone through it in person.
I have been to a good number of therapists who've used CBT methods and they have been quite helpful... I am trying to say that I just needed a refresher, a paper copy, and after that, its been like getting back on a bicycle, I remember my training, lol.
...
Also as far as building rapport: I don't really care to, as I am currently in a relatively temporary living situation, month to month rent, and I fully plan on moving to somewhere with more robust social safety nets and a better mental health support system, public transit system, etc, as soon as I am able, as soon as my PT has been effective enough that I am cleared by my PT team.
As I already mentioned... there are literally no therapists in the state I am currently in, via the health insurancd I can even barely afford... that are qualified and specialized to help an adult with autism.
Not sure where you are, but in the US broadly, there are hardly any psychologists or therapists that are properly qualified to treat high functioning adults with autism.
They are rare, expensive, and have huge waitlists.
I'm in a quite poor red state at the moment, with no highly reputable schools or psychology departments.
Here, autism = you're retarded, and its only ever evaluated as a 'disability' affecting children.
... So my plan is to try to get to where some actual civilization and professionals exist, and to the greatest extent possible, avoid useless or harmful advice from overconfident and untrained specialists who have to pull out the DSM V to understand a reference I am making.
Seems rational to me?
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a lot of therapists and psychs are also useless for helping men. because they are women and they are basically only trained to deal with women's issues and only see women's emotional processes and processing as 'valid'. there is this default bias that men's emotional processing is 'flawed'.
imo with mental health professionals all my 'issues' were blow way out of proportion. i only had one therapist who actaully helped me was a man and that person helped me understand that 'not everything is your fault'. when all the other therapists/friends/family always 100% told me everything that happens to me is entirely my fault. they also told me it was normal/healthy to vent my feelings by doing productive things (like writing, exercising, relaxing), rather than viewing that as 'not addressing the problem'.
the issue with so much of this crap is that not only does nobody want to talk to men, it's that they don't want to listen and/or the tell us we are 'talking wrong'. even when we do talk to people, there is only a tiny window of acceptable things we an talk about and way we can talk about them or how selfish it is of him to vent/indulge his legitimate emotions.
a woman can burst into tears over any little thing and everyone wants to help her. a man bursts into tears over his father dying of cancer and all the sudden everyone wants to tell him his reaction is too intense and he should be thinking of how he is making other people feel.
Pretty much every guy has had someone in his life try to get him to 'open up' and then we he does he's met with nothing but hostility, disappointment, and eventually rejection. We are told to shut up and never talk about it again. Never, ever is he met with acceptance or love.
This is pretty sexist.
Coping skills are not gender specific. How they help is different for each individual.
Women have their emotions unsupported just as much as men I know my mom didn't have anyone caring about how she felt. Pretty sure that's the stereotype of most American moms, they work all day come home cook and clean too.
I've never seen a man cry and be told to stop by anyone other than their own father. I've seen countless women be mocked for being emotional.
Sorry bro your comment is far too one sided to be taken seriously by me. Society is hard on everyone.
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I also play with llms for a living. I use ChatGPT for therapy and to process emotions. I also see a therapist. ChatGPT is there on my time table and at the time I'm trying to process or learn or just have some fun to see where the limits of the model are. I don't have to wait for a random time slot in 4 days where the thoughts get clouded by time.
I know ChatGPT isn't real and it can be dangerous as it always looks to normalize and support your point of view. But sometimes people need an outlet that's not my waifu pillow.
Therapy in real life takes time, effort, you have to build rappprt. You have to find a therapist that meshes well with you; it's really like dating and finding a matching partner. Many people will take months/years before they're willing to open up fully to a therapist... Where in 2 minutes they'll tell ChatGPT their darkest thoughts and closest held secrets. It's different.
ChatGPT (last time I tried it) is extremely sycophantic though. Its high default sampling also leads to totally unexpected/random turns.
Google Gemini is now too.
And they log and use your dark thoughts.
I find that less sycophantic LLMs are way more helpful. Hence I bounce between Nemotron 49B and a few 24B-32B finetunes (or task vectors for Gemma) and find them way more helpful.
…I guess what I’m saying is people should turn towards more specialized and “openly thinking” free tools, not something generic, corporate, and purposely overpleasing like ChatGPT or most default instruct tunes.
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The amount of sexism in this comment section is…unnerving. Does a community exist for male identifying people to talk and share their troubles in a non hostile space? If it doesn’t I’ll make one.
No. Because if it it did it would be shut down as being hostile and offensive to women and a space for proto-rapists to hang out.
Probably the closest space any guy could get is AA or NA meetings.
Sorta agree. Men only spaces make me, a dude, uncomfortable because y'all are weird about women
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a lot of therapists and psychs are also useless for helping men. because they are women and they are basically only trained to deal with women's issues and only see women's emotional processes and processing as 'valid'. there is this default bias that men's emotional processing is 'flawed'.
imo with mental health professionals all my 'issues' were blow way out of proportion. i only had one therapist who actaully helped me was a man and that person helped me understand that 'not everything is your fault'. when all the other therapists/friends/family always 100% told me everything that happens to me is entirely my fault. they also told me it was normal/healthy to vent my feelings by doing productive things (like writing, exercising, relaxing), rather than viewing that as 'not addressing the problem'.
the issue with so much of this crap is that not only does nobody want to talk to men, it's that they don't want to listen and/or the tell us we are 'talking wrong'. even when we do talk to people, there is only a tiny window of acceptable things we an talk about and way we can talk about them or how selfish it is of him to vent/indulge his legitimate emotions.
a woman can burst into tears over any little thing and everyone wants to help her. a man bursts into tears over his father dying of cancer and all the sudden everyone wants to tell him his reaction is too intense and he should be thinking of how he is making other people feel.
Pretty much every guy has had someone in his life try to get him to 'open up' and then we he does he's met with nothing but hostility, disappointment, and eventually rejection. We are told to shut up and never talk about it again. Never, ever is he met with acceptance or love.
Therapy is just littered with bad therapists, that do more harm than good and give the practice a bad name.
For every 1 good therapist, there are probably 10+ bad ones.
It can be a fucking ordeal to navigate, financially and emotionally, to try and find the one good one.
My worst experience was a therapist which charged me 300 dollars a session to do nothing but talk about how amazing they were, and that I need to just suck it up and be amazing like they are, afterall, it was so easy for them.
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A profound relational revolution is underway, not orchestrated by tech developers but driven by users themselves. Many of the 400 million weekly users of ChatGPT are seeking more than just assistance with emails or information on food safety; they are looking for emotional support.
“Therapy and companionship” have emerged as two of the most frequent applications for generative AI globally, according to the Harvard Business Review. This trend marks a significant, unplanned pivot in how people interact with technology.
This comment section is nuts.
Men #1 issue is lack of empathy, TOWARDS women. Not each other.
There's your solution.
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young people feeling depressed and isolated is the least of your problems.
Children are the future of EVERY country. The future is looking bleak for young people in the US. Where do you live? Are young people unaffected by social media or what?
Out here in actual civilization though, tik tok youth drama is not representative of reality whatsoever.
That's the thing though. It's hard for me to wrap my head around sometimes, but for lots of young people, social media IS their reality. This became even more true during the pandemic. We asked young people to go to school on a screen and pretend it was the same as doing it in person. Why wouldn't they have the same mindset about chatting, hanging out, flirting, dating, etc.? They don't see it as simulated socializing, it's just how they socialize.
You can use rethoric and anecdotes all you want but at the end of the day (literally) all you need to do is look out the window and see how many people are out socializing and fucking each other like rabbits.
Those Tik Tok girls complaining about men do so because they are outliers who can't get attention IRL. Simple as.
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The amount of sexism in this comment section is...unnerving. Does a community exist for male identifying people to talk and share their troubles in a non hostile space? If it doesn't I'll make one.
Edit: No idea what I'm doing but /c/reprieve@lemmy.zip
I fail to see malicious sexism. Do you mind quoting them?
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Sorta agree. Men only spaces make me, a dude, uncomfortable because y'all are weird about women
Yeeah agreed. So this is specifically not gonna be about that and if I see any of that shit it's getting nixed.. I just want all these guys who have no where to turn to to...well, have somewhere to turn to. Each other.
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This comment section is nuts.
Men #1 issue is lack of empathy, TOWARDS women. Not each other.
There's your solution.
Empathy does not treat clinical depression.
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Empathy does not treat clinical depression.
I disagree. I had depression pretty bad, I didn't leave my house for two years.
Empathy is definitely what made me feel different, not 100% better but different and different is the first step out of depression I think.
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what makes you think their gender is even relevant to their practice?
Gender and sex broadly influence socialization and communication norms in many ways.
Yep, there are many cases where people do not conform to standard gender/sex norms... but the norms do still broadly, empirically exist or have a physiological basis.
Personally, I am all for breaking down gender norms and stereotypes and roles, and everyone being accepting of more variance and deviation from the norm, as many people do not neatly adhere to the patriarchal hetero dichotomy norm.
... But many still do.
Especially where I am right now, in a poor red state (had to move quite far to find somewhere I could afford to rent), where the education quality is laughable, and traditional gender/sex norms are very prevalent, there are no legal protections against discrimination against queer, disabled persons such as myself.
EDIT:
Also, another, perhaps more direct way to answer your question:
Then I see in their notes later that I am 'arguementative' or 'agitated' or 'aggressive'... far, fsr more often if its a woman psych/soc worker/counselor who I am... not even 'correcting', just trying to not have them put words in my mouth.
Men tend to be less intimidated and more open to my insistance that I meant exactly what I said... and I am talking in the same voice, same mannerisms, same everything, with everyone.
I don't know how you're reading this, but again, I meant what I said.
What makes me think that gender and sex affect a person's efficacy in the psych field, as it pertains to treating different sex/genders, is that I have personally experienced this.
I have been seeing many different kinds of pscyh professionals for a very long time... kickstarted by my mother having a mental break down when I was a kid, and then my family developing a very dysfunctional dynamic, then us all going to family therapy, and then basically each of us continuing on with individual therapy, and moving, and then moving again, and then again...
So I have seen many, many different psych people in my life thus far, and from my own, personal experience... it is far more common for women to interperet things I am saying as hostile and aggressive.
Switch over to a male therapist, if this is possible given insurance and local staffing constraints... and oh hey wow, nearly none of them interpret me as hostile, and I'm acting the same way.
...
I really don't see how this is that baffling of a concept... it is very common with PCPs, for example, sometimes various nurses as well... for your gender/sex preference as to who will be caring for you to be something that is asked.
It is fairly common for say, queer folks to be able to request or prefer a queer therapist... many addiction counselors are former addicts themselves, and this often is very important to establishing trust and relatibility with an addict seeking to detox or go clean.
There's a whole wealth of academic literature about how male PCPs will often downplay women's legitimate health concerns, and I find such literature to be largely valid.
In comparison, there is nearly no literature on how women mental health experts downplay (or even aggravate) men's mental health concerns, despite this being part of the broad stereotype of 'why don't men go to therapy?'
Yep, a lot of it is from the machismo and social stigma.
Another lot of it is from... a lot of guys who actually get over those things and try it, well they basically feel unheard, that their treatment was ineffective or unhelpful at addressing their concerns, or even worse, they feel basically gaslit and manipulated.
...
In conclusion, perhaps the most useful medicsl advice I have ever recieved, and I will joyfully tell you it was from a woman:
Be your own advocate, especially if you don't have a reliable support network in your general life.
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Therapy is just littered with bad therapists, that do more harm than good and give the practice a bad name.
For every 1 good therapist, there are probably 10+ bad ones.
It can be a fucking ordeal to navigate, financially and emotionally, to try and find the one good one.
My worst experience was a therapist which charged me 300 dollars a session to do nothing but talk about how amazing they were, and that I need to just suck it up and be amazing like they are, afterall, it was so easy for them.
Amen.
There is a boatload of bad therapists and bad therapy out there. And sadly it gets a lot more traction and popularity because well... it's simplistic and easy. It's the fast food of therapy.
Good therapy is hard and long and complex. And most people simple don't want to deal with that. They want the diet pill version of therapy. Just make the bad feelings go away, and give me more good feelings.
I don't think enough analogies are drawn between physical vs mental health. Anyone knows that legit physical health is a long and boring process that takes a lot of discipline and time. Mental health and wellness really isn't any different. Therapists should also be more like physical trainers... you need to have a specific goal in mind and work towards that goal and really and the endgame should be to no longer need the physical trainer/therapist
Sadly in our economic system the incentive for a lot of people is the opposite and many bad therapist/trainers just want to generate dependency of their clients on themselves and as such they will indulge their clients worse habits to keep them hooked.
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This is pretty sexist.
Coping skills are not gender specific. How they help is different for each individual.
Women have their emotions unsupported just as much as men I know my mom didn't have anyone caring about how she felt. Pretty sure that's the stereotype of most American moms, they work all day come home cook and clean too.
I've never seen a man cry and be told to stop by anyone other than their own father. I've seen countless women be mocked for being emotional.
Sorry bro your comment is far too one sided to be taken seriously by me. Society is hard on everyone.
Yes they are. The genders are massivenly different in a lot of ways, and failure to acknowledge that is sexist.
But keep screaming that anything that disagrees with your particular narrative that women are great and perpetual victims of men and men are always bad, I guess? Because that's not sexist, at all. lol
it couldn't be that both men and women are people and both suffer from the same bullshit that they themselves perpetuate? nah.
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Yeeah agreed. So this is specifically not gonna be about that and if I see any of that shit it's getting nixed.. I just want all these guys who have no where to turn to to...well, have somewhere to turn to. Each other.
that's what the manosphere is dude.
and i bet you don't like that either. right?
because that's what you get when everyone shuns men. these men go to other men who accept them, and well you get the results we are getting. the manosphere is the only place many people can find any acceptance or advice.
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Well I don't care about your anecdote about the US. That country is lost and young people feeling depressed and isolated is the least of your problems.
Out here in actual civilization though, tik tok youth drama is not representative of reality whatsoever.
Also you shouldn't go with US Default mode on Lemmy since you guys are a minority here. Most of us are European.
Cool, I'm glad you're so enlightened and open minded as to uh ... not give a fuck about perspectives from places you aren't from.
As for you telling me how to use an internet message board... what more do you want from me?
I told you where I am from and what I am talking about.
I'd love to be able to move to Europe and get away from this fucking imploding hell hole of morons.
But I am broke and physically disabled after being the victim of numerous physical assaults.
Are any of ya'll accepting disabled American aslyum seekers, so we can easily enjoy your civilized world?
Didn't think so.
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Yes they are. The genders are massivenly different in a lot of ways, and failure to acknowledge that is sexist.
But keep screaming that anything that disagrees with your particular narrative that women are great and perpetual victims of men and men are always bad, I guess? Because that's not sexist, at all. lol
it couldn't be that both men and women are people and both suffer from the same bullshit that they themselves perpetuate? nah.
Again. Coping skills are not gender specific they're individual specific.
Nobody is screaming. And yes women are victims of men, have you spoken to any of them about it? Because it's rather helpful to have those conversations.
Your comment is just very one sided and that's the side that has the most power on the planet and as a member of that side I have just as much perspective of you and I'm here to say -- nah to most of what you said.
Men's #1 issue is lack of empathy towards women, they isolate half the planet from supporting them. There's your solution.
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You can use rethoric and anecdotes all you want but at the end of the day (literally) all you need to do is look out the window and see how many people are out socializing and fucking each other like rabbits.
Those Tik Tok girls complaining about men do so because they are outliers who can't get attention IRL. Simple as.
You reply to an anecdote (well really more of a logical argument but w/e) with an anecdote.
Astounding level of intellectual discussion going on here.
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I mean, to a certain degree this is broadly true.
Like we have the numbers, younger generations are waaaay less likely to have had a relationship or sexual encounter by the same age/stage in their life as compared to previous generations, way more people just are relationship inexperienced.
This goes for both genders/sexes, though it is more prominent with younger men than women.
The overwhelming problem is that in the US, so much in person socialization is expensive, basically pay-gated, paywalled.
There are very few third places you can just hang out at for no cost. Public transit sucks or is non existant, cars are super unaffordable due to collapsing economy, and all our cities are designed for using cars to drive from place to place... so very few places are actually walk-navigable...
Everyone is increasingly overweight and overworked (or over homeworked, for students) and overstressed, so they can't or don't engage in group meet up hobbies or sports as much as they used to... and ironically even religiosity levels overall trending down means less people are going to church... all the traditional methods of getting socialization and expanding out a friend network in real life are withering.
So, the easier path is to get your socialization, of all kinds, primarily digitally.
But all those most common and popular ways of doing that are also massively manipulative with algos intentionally feeding you whatever ragebait slop appeals to you, personally.
It is very ironic that, as basically a 90s kid myself, very early tech adopter... my view of the vast majority of social media now is that it is basically a mentally harmful and addictive drug that people need to detox from... but when I tell younger people that, they say things like 'its not that deep bro, everybody has a (whatever) profile'.
There are lots of studies that show that very common levels of social media app usage... do actually reduce attention spans, spread dangerous misinformation, lower academic performance, cause negative self esteem by way of unrealistic standards, of beauty, lifestyle, wealth... brainrot is real, basically.
Like, I am all for the TikTok ban for kids. But also ban all short form video content for kids. Instagram, Youtube shorts, whatever.
This shit is melting peoples brains, it needs to be treated the same way you'd treat a drug epidemic.
We are now at the point where kids give so little of a fuck, have such tiny attention spans and need for constant, rapid fire stimulation... that half of adult Americans read below a 6th grade level, 20-30% of them read below a 2nd grade level, making them functionally illiterate... and thats just with Gen Z now mostly being in those young adult numbers, its gonna be even worse when Gen Alpha graduates and starts trying to enter society/the workforce.
EDIT:
This isn't even broadly unprecedented.
Look at Japan.
Hikkikomori.
The stagnant economy becomes overly financialized and corporatized and impossibly demanding... so people just drop out of it, or worse, kill themselves from the stress of trying to live up to its expectations...
And well then yeah, in person socializing broadly drops, relationship dynamics become strained and morph, birth rate plummets.
Give it 5 or 10 years and we'll have something resembling rent a boyfriend/girlfriend services and maid / stud cafes as well, as the stereotypified fascimile of socialization and having a real relstionship becomes a marketable product, and then industry.
Maybe a few areas will even properly legalize and regulate prostitution.
Granted, that'll be in any areas that remain even kind of blue.
The red areas will just go full theocrat and send you to jail for masturbating, but also re-legalize child marriage, and rework marriage laws into 'covenant marriage', where basically the woman functionally cannot divorce the husband.
In summary: cyberpunk hypercapitalism is in fact very very bad for healthy human relationship dynamics.
There are very few third places you can just hang out at for no cost. Public transit sucks or is non existant, cars are super unaffordable due to collapsing economy, and all our cities are designed for using cars to drive from place to place… so very few places are actually walk-navigable…
Yeah a lot of these trends are also easy to break down by economic class. the people suffering the most from the are poorer people. well off upper middle income people experience these problems far less proportionally. because they have the resources to get around the paywalls, and have the well-off parents with the money to pay for all the extra schooling and digital detoxing that is necessary for better life outcomes.
but for the middle class and below... they are cooked. the avenues to success and self-reliance are basically non-existence and and have been shrinking at start rates since the 90s and the school system is become a cesspool that any decent intelligent person wants nothing to do with.
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that's what the manosphere is dude.
and i bet you don't like that either. right?
because that's what you get when everyone shuns men. these men go to other men who accept them, and well you get the results we are getting. the manosphere is the only place many people can find any acceptance or advice.
Well if you give up before you start just because the existing options are shitty then that makes you part of the problem, doesn't it?
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