I don't disagree with the criticisms of American cars -- overpriced, uninspired, unreliable, over-engineered, etc. -- but to everyone saying "we should just compete", do you realize the realities that Chinese workers experience? Have you heard of 996? It's shorthand for a common work schedule in China: 9am to 9pm, 6 days a week. Benefits that are common in the U.S., even in non-union shops, like retirement plans, PTO, worker's comp, and overtime pay are rare. So, yeah, things can be made much cheaper if you are willing to feed your workforce into the grinder.

American cars have sucked compared to Asian cars since the 1970s. I don't understand why people are acting all surprised that this is true in respect to BYD. Sure in the past products designed in China were stereotyped as poor quality knock offs of western designed goods, but in the past decade Chinese engineers have increasingly proven themselves as perfectly capable of making solid, innovative designs that improve upon those of their competitors. I think it's kind of fucked up that everyone is so suddenly upset about China's role in the world economy since everyone was completely fine using them for cheap labor over the past several decades and are just mad that Chinese companies are beating them at high skill labor and technology. Chinese companies do have an "unfair advantage" given how much they are backed by the Chinese government but American companies receive all sorts of money from the government for all sorts of things as well.

Ford was the only one not to take a buyout, FYI.

Ford wouldn't survive BYD either, though.

Greed rules the Western world.

This is definitely worth mentioning but it's also good to note that it was a loan not a bailout and Ford has repaid it.

Documents filed by Ford show the company owed payments of $591 million in 2020, $591 million in 2021, and $289 million in 2022. As of this year, the loan has been completely repaid. But the compact cars it built with the original loan have since been discontinued.

Ford also received a $9.2B loan for EV battery factory projects from the government.

„Free market“? Speaking of hypocrisy. Chinese car brands are so heavily subsidized they probably cost the Chinese economy more than they make selling them at the moment. China is clearly trying to drown the global market with cheap cars so they can ramp up prices immensely once they have killed the competition and have become a monopoly. China hasn‘t been the extreme low income country to produce super cheaply for a long time and they couldn‘t produce cars this cheap in a free market situation.

Many countries and the EU have measures against such practices because state run operations with the sole purpose to destroy an industry (which this is) undermine the very idea of the free market or even trade relationships.

Alternatively we could start subsiding local car makers and play the same little game China is playing but more cars is honestly the last thing we need right now. Tariffs are a much smoother option to deal with this even when they have a bad rep.

Ideally we use that generated money from tariffs to subsidize public transport so we don‘t get cheaper cars but cheaper alternatives but that‘s still just a dream I‘m afraid.

Whatever the case, one should look at super cheap cars and what that means in the long run more critically.

Alternatively we could start subsiding local car makers

We have been. Bailout after bailout. For the longest fucking time, and have had insane trade rules and tarrigs in place for decades and decades. I'd argue this is what it looks like to have another country finally being able to play on a level playing field.

I don't disagree with the criticisms of American cars -- overpriced, uninspired, unreliable, over-engineered, etc. -- but to everyone saying "we should just compete", do you realize the realities that Chinese workers experience? Have you heard of 996? It's shorthand for a common work schedule in China: 9am to 9pm, 6 days a week. Benefits that are common in the U.S., even in non-union shops, like retirement plans, PTO, worker's comp, and overtime pay are rare. So, yeah, things can be made much cheaper if you are willing to feed your workforce into the grinder.

The compact cars probably being the Fiesta and the Focus. The Fiesta is almost a perfect vehicle. Small but comfy for four decent sized occupants. Great gas mileage. Super reliable motor (I have one with 219,000 miles that's never even needed a tune-up yet--5 speed manual). They put ultra shitty automatic transmissions in them that failed after 35,000 miles so all the good was nullified by that boneheaded decision. Of course you always run the risk of being turned into a grease pancake by bro-dozers all day every day when driving a car in the US.

Domestic US cars can't compete with foreign cars. We've known that forever. Or at least since the 90s.

Look no further than Kei trucks being illegal.

Our overengineered, over priced, unnecessarily complicated crap just can't compete with simple transport vehicles because they aren't made as a tool to serve a purpose. Everyone wants to make a Corolla into a Cadillac and sell it for Cadillac prices.

So when can we stop with this "free markets" nonsense in the third world aswell??

I don't disagree with the criticisms of American cars -- overpriced, uninspired, unreliable, over-engineered, etc. -- but to everyone saying "we should just compete", do you realize the realities that Chinese workers experience? Have you heard of 996? It's shorthand for a common work schedule in China: 9am to 9pm, 6 days a week. Benefits that are common in the U.S., even in non-union shops, like retirement plans, PTO, worker's comp, and overtime pay are rare. So, yeah, things can be made much cheaper if you are willing to feed your workforce into the grinder.

Hmmm. I think US cars can absolutely compete. Here is the problem. Foreign manufacturers make cars that people want to buy. American manufacturers make cars that they want to sell. These two things are not the same.

My only point of confusion is that a 20k loss on every car is insane. I'm guessing its a bit of BYD is subsidised somewhat, and everyone else is price gouging somewhat. No idea the ratio.

Also odd that other Chinese brands (really only tried MG) dont seem to have the same high quality, high pricing that suggests the same level of crazy subsidies.

Honestly, there is just so much fuckery going I just have no idea what is what.

Domestic US cars can't compete with foreign cars. We've known that forever. Or at least since the 90s.

Look no further than Kei trucks being illegal.

Our overengineered, over priced, unnecessarily complicated crap just can't compete with simple transport vehicles because they aren't made as a tool to serve a purpose. Everyone wants to make a Corolla into a Cadillac and sell it for Cadillac prices.

Hmmm. I think US cars can absolutely compete. Here is the problem. Foreign manufacturers make cars that people want to buy. American manufacturers make cars that they want to sell. These two things are not the same.

I don't disagree with the criticisms of American cars -- overpriced, uninspired, unreliable, over-engineered, etc. -- but to everyone saying "we should just compete", do you realize the realities that Chinese workers experience? Have you heard of 996? It's shorthand for a common work schedule in China: 9am to 9pm, 6 days a week. Benefits that are common in the U.S., even in non-union shops, like retirement plans, PTO, worker's comp, and overtime pay are rare. So, yeah, things can be made much cheaper if you are willing to feed your workforce into the grinder.

Americans have come to think of Chinese products as bad quality because of the American companies who engage them for cheaper labor. Walmart was known to order products made to a certain spec one year, then the next year demand the company increase production, but for the same amount paid as the previous year. The Chinese company, not wanting to lose the contract, obliges, but corners have to be cut. It should be called Americanesium, not Chineseum.

Derek Guy (Die, Workwear!) posted a thread a while back (I think about 6 months ago) about how the Chinese can and do make great quality products, pointing out high quality fabrics. Give them money to buy good raw materials, give them a decent wage, and they'll put out a good product. Honestly, they probably have a more fair work ethic than some American companies that just feed their CEOs massive salaries or are owned by private equity.