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Forced E-Waste PCs And The Case Of Windows 11’s Trusted Platform

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  • You're making up scenarios so you can get outraged over them and push linux lol.

    TPM was known to be a DRM Trojan horse in 2004. Then everyone forgot about that fact.

    Sure, pushing Linux is just a new angle, but don't think for a second that TPM has any purpose other than making your own computer trust a cabal of corporations over you, the owner. And if there is a critical mass of TPM standardized hardware, such that a "trusted" environment is the standard, it will lock you out of major use cases on all "untrusted" systems, including Linux.

    And that deserves a lot of outrage.

  • You're making up scenarios so you can get outraged over them and push linux lol.

    Hey man, yeah, I get it. I worry a lot about sounding like a conspiracy theorist; a real Chicken Little.

    But when I look internally and ask myself why I make these posts, why I conspire so much about unknown futures, I come to two most likely outcomes:

    1. I'm trying to trick you into installing Linux for some reason. Selfishly I guess if there's a larger userbase demanding support for things then I can expect better support for myself. Or I'm just trying to sound like a pompous smartass in front of internet strangers. But those are a little obtuse.
    2. I see a bunch of people standing in what I perceive (possibly incorrectly, but nonetheless) a trap and I'm shouting, "Hey, get outta there now before it springs!" because I have general empathy towards other people.

    Worst case I'm wrong and I look a fool. I really don't have a problem with that. I know who I'd trust if the positions were switched 💯

  • Ya boy Richard Stallman agrees and has been saying this for years (although this article is more recentish), https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/can-you-trust.en.html

    “Treacherous computing” is a more appropriate name, because the plan is designed to make sure your computer will systematically disobey you. In fact, it is designed to stop your computer from functioning as a general-purpose computer. Every operation may require explicit permission.

    As of 2022, the TPM2, a new “Trusted Platform Module”, really does support remote attestation and can support DRM. The threat I warned about in 2002 has become terrifyingly real.

    Actual, honest to god reasons to upgrade to Windows 11 are already vague and questionable. Your average user probably doesn't even see any particular reason and only perceives the nuisance of it. But it's hard to fully close your iron fist around a platform when TPM enablement is so sparse in the consumer space. So what better way to do it than a mandatory OS upgrade with it as a system requirement and assure all (or a vast majority of) systems align at once?

    Of course there are ways for stubborn users to skirt those requirements, but that misses the primary point of Trusted Computing. While the OS may baseline function to some degree, there's no telling what functionality may be crippled by not being in a trusted state. EDIT: For example, this could easily tie into games with anti-cheat such that they will refuse to run on Windows 11 unless TPM is enabled.

    I don't know the future any better than anyone else, I'm just trying to read the winds at the moment. I suspect they may not try to pull the entire trap closed all at once and that Windows 11 may continue to more or less function as we've seen past iterations. But the pieces will be in place by then and it's only a matter of time before some greedy exec gives the word .....

    I suspect they may not try to pull the entire trap closed all at once and that Windows 11 may continue to more or less function as we've seen past iterations

    Microsoft will be taking a page from Google playbook. Google has be gradually reducing the "openness" of their android platform. They now have these "security checks" enforced on android. Meaning that it's trivial for an application to determine if the phone a "genuine android" or not.

    This'll trickle into webbrowser too (if it's not already in browsers like chrome). It's only a matter of time before web pages will be able to determine if they're running on a "secure OS" and fail to run. It'll start out with your banking website, then expand to shopping websites, ultimately every page will enforce it ("oh, I see you have an unauthorized browser plug in installed. We care about your security, therefore we won't run. Please restore your device to it's secure defaults.")

    This future is so horrible and Linux with its 4% market share won't change anything.

  • I suspect they may not try to pull the entire trap closed all at once and that Windows 11 may continue to more or less function as we've seen past iterations

    Microsoft will be taking a page from Google playbook. Google has be gradually reducing the "openness" of their android platform. They now have these "security checks" enforced on android. Meaning that it's trivial for an application to determine if the phone a "genuine android" or not.

    This'll trickle into webbrowser too (if it's not already in browsers like chrome). It's only a matter of time before web pages will be able to determine if they're running on a "secure OS" and fail to run. It'll start out with your banking website, then expand to shopping websites, ultimately every page will enforce it ("oh, I see you have an unauthorized browser plug in installed. We care about your security, therefore we won't run. Please restore your device to it's secure defaults.")

    This future is so horrible and Linux with its 4% market share won't change anything.

    Agreed.

    And what's particularly galling about this is that it's never made any sense to me. Are you telling me an Android app, on compromised hardware or otherwise, could send malformed data that would for instance deposit $1M into my bank account? That doesn't sound like an issue of local security. An app is just a frontend, all validation would still be through the banking infrastructure.

  • This rings a little hollow to me. Most of the people I know that understand Linux can quickly summarize why they might not use it as their daily driver (eg staying on macOS for graphics/video or staying on Windows for desktop Word/Excel). If you can’t summarize that quickly, it really makes me wonder if you really understand it. I’m not trying to No True Scotsman my way around it; I really don’t understand.

    The reasons I personally know are "I have to use an app for work, there is no interoperable alternative, I have no leverage to replace that entire ecosystem and it won't run with wine" and "It's a company-issued device where I have no rights to change anything anyway."
    Combined, they make the reason that my work Laptop runs Win11, but my private PC is Linux through and through. I'd like to be able to use said app on my private PC too, but if it doesn't, no big deal.

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    You can argue all you want about TPM and its 'security'. I ALWAYS thought that forcing users to use TPM 2+ hardware is planned obsolescence and nothing/no one will convince me otherwise.

    The only thing affected users can and should do is to leave that PoS of an 'operating system'.

  • This is on top of potential tariffs which if enacted will make PC costs skyrocket. I feel like a lot of people are just going to skip the generation like they do with every other windows OS version. They will just keep windows 10 forever kinda like XP did back in the day.

    I'm pretty hesitant to find the time to install and learn Linux but I'm VERY hesitant to upgrade to Win11. I'm having trouble understanding what the selling point for it is over Win10. I feel like it used to be clear and exciting to upgrade but they've managed to make this feel sort of dreadful.

  • Because it's so hard to use Rufus and make a win 11 install that bypasses the tpm requirements.

    Cause your use case is the only one that exists, of course.

    Companies are reluctant to use this method as theres no telling what will break due to TPM being disabled. Some will still use it as they have no other choice though.

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    .

  • I've converted a ton of my older family to Linux, it does everything they need as far as web browsing and some basic office applications, and it offers a polished enough UI these days that most barely tell it apart from windows, some even prefer the UI more. Even 2/3 of our home systems have gone full Linux now too (no more dual booting) and handle all my own gaming, audio and programming needs. I really hope this message keeps getting out there and we can cut back on ewaste and forced obselence.

  • I've converted a ton of my older family to Linux, it does everything they need as far as web browsing and some basic office applications, and it offers a polished enough UI these days that most barely tell it apart from windows, some even prefer the UI more. Even 2/3 of our home systems have gone full Linux now too (no more dual booting) and handle all my own gaming, audio and programming needs. I really hope this message keeps getting out there and we can cut back on ewaste and forced obselence.

    .

  • The article focuses a lot on the security of the boot process, but there's no reason the TPM can't be used for DRM as well (as an example, https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/5283799). It's correct when it points out the locked down nature of consoles and phones.

    We could conceivably be in for a future where Windows refuses to run code that's not validated even after the OS boots. Or where it sees pirated software on the system and refuses to function in some manner until the software is removed/corrected to its liking.

    There are so many possibilities here and all of them are bad.

    • Forced online accounts so Microsoft always knows when/where you login
    • Stored encryption keys so Microsoft could theoretically provide access to any computer the government requests
    • Telemetry already reporting god only knows what metrics about what and how you use your software
    • Forced AI that literally watches everything you do on your screen storing it in a known location making for a valuable target and also potentially/likely being used to create more telemetry and insights into your habits
    • Eventual full control over your hardware by enforcing "trusted platform" restrictions

    It's so fucking brazen I'm gobsmacked. As an elder Millennial, I get it, I can already hear most of you tallying in your head if having to care about your OS is gonna be the final straw . This is no longer a nerdy request to please use Linux, this is a five alarm fire. Add to all this how much Microsoft is in bed with the US government and potential issues with all that on the horizon and I really, truly believe it's time to switch, for your own good.

    Please. Even if you're not going to run out and install Linux tomorrow, you need to start mentally preparing yourself for the inevitability of the task. Get yourself accustomed to the idea and when you're ready to dip your toes in, just know how many resources are out there for you.

    And to the Linux community out there, there are going to be a lot of newcomers who don't have the technical skills to undertake this and enjoy/appreciate this in the same way as you do. Be kind to them, the need for us to support each other has never been greater. Please.

    I've been daily-driving Linux for over a decade at this point so you don't need to convince me, and I'll just spin up a Windows VM for things aren't picky about baremetal OS installs, but also don't play nice with WINE.

  • I have a custom built PC running on Windows 10, which has no TPM and therefore cannot update to Win11. I might consider Linux as an alternative on some regular laptop, but I'm afraid that my games might no longer be running if I switch the OS from Windows to Linux.

  • I have a custom built PC running on Windows 10, which has no TPM and therefore cannot update to Win11. I might consider Linux as an alternative on some regular laptop, but I'm afraid that my games might no longer be running if I switch the OS from Windows to Linux.

    Proton has come a long way.

    The only game I can’t play is fortnight, and that’s because Epic won’t enable the anti cheat to run on Linux, not because the game doesn’t work.

  • I have a custom built PC running on Windows 10, which has no TPM and therefore cannot update to Win11. I might consider Linux as an alternative on some regular laptop, but I'm afraid that my games might no longer be running if I switch the OS from Windows to Linux.

    Almost every single modern game runs on Linux, i always thought it was an issue but in reality it just works out of the box most of the time.

  • Proton has come a long way.

    The only game I can’t play is fortnight, and that’s because Epic won’t enable the anti cheat to run on Linux, not because the game doesn’t work.

    What is “Proton” in this context?

  • What is “Proton” in this context?

    It’s an extension of WINE, a compatibility layer that allows Windows apps to run on Linux, with better support for games. It’s what the Steam Deck uses.

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    Switch to Linux, today. It's always been the better option, but for the last decade it's been the easier option as well. Installing Linux is a walk in the park whereas windows is a Hilarious clown show from hell with no end.

    That reminds me that now in the office we're dealing with windows machines where the network card just stops working, drivers are suddenly gone. Don't ask, it's windows, it's Microsoft abd this is just considered normal. If a Linux machine has a bug it's "oh my god Linux sucks sooo hard, it's impossible to get it to work!" but this Microsoft bullshit just gets handwaved away with "well computers are complicated, let's just reinstall this"

    Yes, there is still a limited set of specialty hardware that may not have drivers available for Linux, but the vast majority of people can easily run Linux and have a much MUCH better experience than windows, and that is ignoring the spyware, the adware, the ads, the plain security nightmare of having a windows machine....

    Switch to Linux, it's easy, it's beautiful, it's fun. Come to Linux, come to the dark side, we have cookies

  • What is “Proton” in this context?

    As another person mentioned Proton is Linux’s compatibility layer for Windows applications, from my understanding it installs necessary .NET frameworks and other dependencies into a fake C:\ drive an then utilizes that fake C:\ to trick the game into thinking it’s running Windows.

    Every windows applications I put through Proton has not once failed to open. Now the claims that Anti-Cheat for games isn’t supported is purely false, most popular anti cheat’s do support Linux however, it’s entirely up to the publisher to tick the checkbox to allow Linux users to play.

    Battle eye, Punk Buster, Easy Anti-Cheat all support Linux natively.

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    I can't wait for the surge in cheap PCs available to buy and install Linux on. Please, Microsoft, lock down Windows more.

  • Does anyone remember Webdog??

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    Nothing. What’s up with you?
  • How Wikipedia is fighting AI slop content

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    They are constantly changing, but one could probably get pretty far focusing on ChatGPT (which is what most "lazy" authors use). And there are already efforts in this domain from the community, see the "slop" profiles in EQ bench: https://eqbench.com/creative_writing.html Traditional LLMs would be better suited (ironically) for fact checking, eg they check for citations, then go to follow the links and see if it matches the text. They're also much better at "checking" for sanity than actually writing it out. An obviously this would just be a first pass for a person to quickly confirm.
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    That is a drive unit. The robot is bending down next to it wearing a vest.
  • Russia frees REvil hackers after sentencing

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    What makes even more sense is that they now might be secretly forced to hack for the government in exchange for bread and water and staying out of prison.
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    Niemand hat geantwortet
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    Just for the record, even in Italy the winter tires are required for the season (but we can just have chains on board and we are good). Double checking and it doesn’t seem like it? Then again I don’t live in Italy. Here in Sweden you’ll face a fine of ~2000kr (roughly 200€) per tire on your vehicle that is out of spec. https://www.europe-consommateurs.eu/en/travelling-motor-vehicles/motor-vehicles/winter-tyres-in-europe.html Well, I live in Italy and they are required at least in all the northern regions and over a certain altitude in all the others from 15th November to 15th April. Then in some regions these limits are differents as you have seen. So we in Italy already have a law that consider a different situation for the same rule. Granted that you need to write a more complex law, but in the end it is nothing impossible. …and thus it is much simpler to handle these kinds of regulations at a lower level. No need for everyone everywhere to agree, people can have rules that work for them where they live, folks are happier and don’t have to struggle against a system run by bureaucrats so far away they have no idea what reality on the ground is (and they can’t, it’s impossible to account for every scenario centrally). Even on a municipal level certain regulations differ, and that’s completely ok! So it is not that difficult, just write a directive that say: "All the member states should make laws that require winter tires in every place it is deemed necessary". I don't really think that making EU more integrated is impossibile
  • You probably don't remember these but I have a question

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    lordwiggle@lemmy.worldL
    Priorities man, priorities
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    Of course they don't click anything. Google search has just become a front-end for Gemini, the answer is "served" up right at the top and most people will just take that for Gospel.