The "standard" car charger is usually overkill—but your electrician might not know that [32:26]
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In recent test of a German auto club they found out that it‘s cheaper/ more effective to charger faster. You loose a lot of energy if you load slow over hours.
This energy is taken by the electricity of the car. So, while charging the car is on and takes some Watts. There are just a few brands that have decoupled the charger circuit from the overall electric circuit of the car.
Can’t find the article now, but I think charging a PHEV through a standard power plug had about 20% energy lost. It was clearly visible that a charger is a good choice.
You‘ll loose
- ~10-30% AC 2.3kw Standard Power Plug
- ~ 5-10% DC 11kw Wallbox
- Internal car electronics are crucial: Is the loading circuit de-coupled or the entire car On?
- Temperature or pre-heating the battery before loading reduces losses at DC charging
Watts/h
Just watts, watts is already Joules per second.
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This is not about me or you, this is "usually".
That depends on what is meant by usually. You seem to think it means "most daily situations," but I think it means "most house installations." Yes, a usual day in a person's life does not require L2. But the usual person does require L2 if they want to use their car like most people prefer to use their car. Once a week I need L2 charging because of all the stuff I do that isn't commuting. That is 1 day in a 7 day week, so usually I don't need L2. But I would not be able to have an EV if I didn't have L2 unless I had a second car (which I don't have). I think most people fall into this category, so the usual person needs L2 even if they don't usually need L2.
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Yep – US also doesn't generally do residential three-phase unlike many countries in the EU. A lot of garages around here have 3x16A 230V, not (only) due to the power requirements but because having three phases allows for simplest induction motors for things like blowers and circular saws. When you have three phases having a proper outlet in the garage starts making sense.
Around here (Finland more specifically) we have three-phase even in most apartments. My two bedroom apartment has a 3x25A main breaker, and two devices on 3x16A circuit's – the sauna stove and oven+stovetop. Most single-family homes have 3x25A or 3x36A as well.
US households are missing out on a lot of things due to their split-phase system.
having three phases allows for simplest induction motors for things like blowers and circular saws
Which is really nice. No capacitors or other electronics needed. My old drill press has 750W 3-phase motor and it just works. Also having the power available gives options like running a 7kW log splitter with circular saw at the end of 20 meter long extension cord.
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Car specific maybe? I was able to charge at -30C outside from a 120V outlet last winter.
Maybe, I know Teslas are a bit power-hungry when parked.
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ADHD guy here.
Wondering if these are reasons but need someone knowledgable to answer
- does the mains breaker have a limited amount of resets / duty cycle?
- is it bad for the whole house to trip sometimes? For me having to reset electronics, potential data loss etc makes it annoying.
- is there a potential for surging when the mains is flicked back on from everything starting simultaneously?
one of us
- Hadn't considered that one TBH, no practical limits with actuations (rated in the thousands) but they're probably not rated for that many trips under a fault condition – now I'm curious, will have to dig up a spec sheet at some point
- Not really, unless you have equipment that's poorly designed everything should be fine. It's not much different from a brownout, and things should be configured to deal with that anyways if you don't have a UPS
- If there are a lot of reactive loads, then yes – e.g. electric motors, large capacitors. Those will have a large inrush when started again. Typically there isn't that much reactive loading in a residential home though, and it should be covered by the latency designed into the breaker.
The first point is actually a really good one, and one I didn't really remember to consider. I'd guess it has at least something to do with that (and would explain why many homes around here are still configured with traditional fuses for the main connection – no need to worry about lifetime when you have to replace them anyways)
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That depends on what is meant by usually. You seem to think it means "most daily situations," but I think it means "most house installations." Yes, a usual day in a person's life does not require L2. But the usual person does require L2 if they want to use their car like most people prefer to use their car. Once a week I need L2 charging because of all the stuff I do that isn't commuting. That is 1 day in a 7 day week, so usually I don't need L2. But I would not be able to have an EV if I didn't have L2 unless I had a second car (which I don't have). I think most people fall into this category, so the usual person needs L2 even if they don't usually need L2.
You seem to think it means "most daily situations," but I think it means "most house installations."
That's the opposite of what I think.
Once a week I need L2 charging because of all the stuff I do that isn't commuting.
No you don't. You go and do those things, then plug it in and charge it up over the next 6 days until it's fully charged again. If that is insufficient then you are not a typical usecase.
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I'm not sure what you mean by this. Any modern US house would have a similar capability, it's just older homes that would struggle since there would never be a need for such high power devices in a garage.
Most older garages would only need enough power to run a single lightbulb, if it was slightly newer, maybe a low power automatic garage door opener.
It's the same in any country with buildings over 100 years old.
It’s the same in any country with buildings over 100 years old.
In here 100+ year old houses are pretty common but practically all of them still have at least somewhat up to date electrics with that 3-phase input. It's been around for decades after all. My house is built originally 1928 and my mothers house is from 1909 and both of them have 3x25A main breakers with those 380V 16A CEE sockets around.
And as garages commonly double as a work space with 3-phase induction motors on the tools it's still pretty common to have that 3x16A available as it's not that much more expensive to pull 5x2.5mm² cable to the garage compared to 3x2.5mm² for single phase 16A outlet.
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Are they somehow more expensive in the US? 40A 230V rated ones cost something like 30-50 € around here which doesn't feel that expensive to me. I'll admit it's considerably more expensive (~4x the price) than a standard breaker, but it's still more like a rounding error in overall costs.
Although EVSE's projection doesn't require you to periodically trip the GFCI so it doesn't get stuck, which is a major plus.
Are they somehow more expensive in the US? 40A 230V rated ones cost something like 30-50 € around here which doesn’t feel that expensive to me.
In my suggested hardwired 240V 20A EV charger the total parts cost is just the regular breaker on the left at about $18.
The suggested solution you had of putting an outlet in would have parts cost of $119 + the cost of the GFCI breaker, the outlet and the receptacle cover. So that solution is 660% more expensive.
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You seem to think it means "most daily situations," but I think it means "most house installations."
That's the opposite of what I think.
Once a week I need L2 charging because of all the stuff I do that isn't commuting.
No you don't. You go and do those things, then plug it in and charge it up over the next 6 days until it's fully charged again. If that is insufficient then you are not a typical usecase.
So when I get home from a 200 mile round trip to the desert on Sunday night, I have roughly 20 miles of range on the Bolt. If I can add 40 miles of range to my car overnight (10 hours of charging at 4mph), that gives me 60 miles of range to do a 20 mile round trip commute. But what if I want to go to the Dodgers game after work? Or if I need to run a bunch of errands after work that I skipped while in the desert? People want their car to be able to go places when they want to go places.
You are talking to me as if you think I didn't own multiple full EVs as my only car for over 6 years. I lived with a 90mile range Toyota Rav4 EV without DC fast charging and took it on road trips. I also lived with that car without L2 charging for a month. That month was miserable, and I would have never kept that car if I didn't upgrade to L2.
If you have a second car, then you don't need a 300 mile range EV and also don't need L2. If you have a very short commute and don't do anything after work or on the weekends, then you don't need L2.
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Are they somehow more expensive in the US? 40A 230V rated ones cost something like 30-50 € around here which doesn’t feel that expensive to me.
In my suggested hardwired 240V 20A EV charger the total parts cost is just the regular breaker on the left at about $18.
The suggested solution you had of putting an outlet in would have parts cost of $119 + the cost of the GFCI breaker, the outlet and the receptacle cover. So that solution is 660% more expensive.
Ok, so the US-style GFCI-breakers are indeed a lot more expensive than similarly rated DIN-rail alternatives. TIL
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Not talking about the circuits, but the main electrical connection to the grid. To me it often seems like there's reluctance in
overcommittingoverprovisioning that capacity: as an example, four 16A circuits on a 25A main breaker. Here that's quite common, but even in Tech connections videos I've seen him bring up smart electric cabinets or automatic load monitoring when putting enough capacity on the mains to possibly go over.What I'm asking is, why bother? If you trip the mains by having too much load, just reset the breaker and be done with it. No need to automate things to not run into that situation, one will learn to not have the oven on while charging the car full blast. No need to gimp the charger amperage since you're running a new circuit anyway, and it's not like it's much different running a 20A circuit vs a 40A one. If that's 70% of your total available capacity, it doesn't matter – worst you have to do is walk downstairs and flip a switch.
The infinitely easier solution is to let the car charger know how much power is available to draw.
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It's not fucking overkill. There's no such thing.
I'm really disappointed with the video. That dude usually knows his shit, but he's way off the mark here. It's just plain wrong.
Getting a smaller charger might save a few hundred, but it will also increase your chances of burning the house down. Good fucking advise, huh.
Fuck that. You'll always want to charge as fast as your main circuit breaker will allow.
Do you think a device with regulation circuits is more likely to be overloaded and start fires...?
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Ok, so the US-style GFCI-breakers are indeed a lot more expensive than similarly rated DIN-rail alternatives. TIL
If it makes you feel better, I was shocked (pun intended) to learn this too, and I live here.
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So when I get home from a 200 mile round trip to the desert on Sunday night, I have roughly 20 miles of range on the Bolt. If I can add 40 miles of range to my car overnight (10 hours of charging at 4mph), that gives me 60 miles of range to do a 20 mile round trip commute. But what if I want to go to the Dodgers game after work? Or if I need to run a bunch of errands after work that I skipped while in the desert? People want their car to be able to go places when they want to go places.
You are talking to me as if you think I didn't own multiple full EVs as my only car for over 6 years. I lived with a 90mile range Toyota Rav4 EV without DC fast charging and took it on road trips. I also lived with that car without L2 charging for a month. That month was miserable, and I would have never kept that car if I didn't upgrade to L2.
If you have a second car, then you don't need a 300 mile range EV and also don't need L2. If you have a very short commute and don't do anything after work or on the weekends, then you don't need L2.
If that is insufficient then you are not a typical usecase.
If you are doing a 200 mile trip, being home for 10 hours, then going out and doing another hundred miles on a regular basis, you are an extreme usecase. If you do this 1 or 2x/year this could easily be covered by spending literally a few extra bucks and stopping at a (presumably existent) L3 station for a few minutes.
I do the same trips as the rest of you, only on a monthly basis with multiple bikes strapped to a hitch on the back, and in a 200-mile vehicle. I arrive home with very little range (<10%), but over the course of just a few days on L1 I will be back to 80%, without making any compromises about where I want/need to go.
People want their car to be able to go places when they want to go places
"People" don't need to travel the same way you do.
You are talking to me as if you think I didn't own multiple full EVs
No I am talking to you as if you don't understand the usecase of the vast majority of drivers, and you don't understand the point of the video in the OP. Which is fine, most people don't, that's why he made it.
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Not talking about the circuits, but the main electrical connection to the grid. To me it often seems like there's reluctance in
overcommittingoverprovisioning that capacity: as an example, four 16A circuits on a 25A main breaker. Here that's quite common, but even in Tech connections videos I've seen him bring up smart electric cabinets or automatic load monitoring when putting enough capacity on the mains to possibly go over.What I'm asking is, why bother? If you trip the mains by having too much load, just reset the breaker and be done with it. No need to automate things to not run into that situation, one will learn to not have the oven on while charging the car full blast. No need to gimp the charger amperage since you're running a new circuit anyway, and it's not like it's much different running a 20A circuit vs a 40A one. If that's 70% of your total available capacity, it doesn't matter – worst you have to do is walk downstairs and flip a switch.
I don’t think overprovisioning is a thing that is realistically is a problem in the U.S. or in Germany. I know that modern homes tend to have 300amp mains. Older homes 100amps. You would have to have a house that was wired in 1920 in order to have a 20amp mains available. In that case you have bigger issues safety wise.
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The infinitely easier solution is to let the car charger know how much power is available to draw.
Well, true. Fair enough
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Uh.
I drove semi trucks in the US for years....
You'd better either double clutch or float those gears, because if you don't, you're destroying your clutch brake, which means you'll have trouble getting it into gear from a dead stop. That applies for both upshifts and downshifts.
Ever sit next to an old truck or bus and hear them grinding gears to get into gear?
That's due to the clutch brake failing to stop the flywheel.
All semi trucks in the US use synchro-less manual transmissions.
When shifting a syncro-less transmission, YOU are the synchro.
The clutch in these trucks has 2 positions. You either just barely engage the clutch enough to break contact, or you depress it fully to engage the clutch brake and (attempt to) stop the flywheel from spinning.
If you do the second one while shifting a moving vehicle, you're causing undue wear and tear on the aforementioned clutch brake.
Sure. But in the first Fast and Furious movie they're not driving syncro-less transmission semis. They're driving tricked out sports cars in a straight line and somehow having about 14 gear changes in a 6 speed manual.
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In recent test of a German auto club they found out that it‘s cheaper/ more effective to charger faster. You loose a lot of energy if you load slow over hours.
This energy is taken by the electricity of the car. So, while charging the car is on and takes some Watts. There are just a few brands that have decoupled the charger circuit from the overall electric circuit of the car.
Can’t find the article now, but I think charging a PHEV through a standard power plug had about 20% energy lost. It was clearly visible that a charger is a good choice.
You‘ll loose
- ~10-30% AC 2.3kw Standard Power Plug
- ~ 5-10% DC 11kw Wallbox
- Internal car electronics are crucial: Is the loading circuit de-coupled or the entire car On?
- Temperature or pre-heating the battery before loading reduces losses at DC charging
Yes, he responds to that in the video.
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It’s the same in any country with buildings over 100 years old.
In here 100+ year old houses are pretty common but practically all of them still have at least somewhat up to date electrics with that 3-phase input. It's been around for decades after all. My house is built originally 1928 and my mothers house is from 1909 and both of them have 3x25A main breakers with those 380V 16A CEE sockets around.
And as garages commonly double as a work space with 3-phase induction motors on the tools it's still pretty common to have that 3x16A available as it's not that much more expensive to pull 5x2.5mm² cable to the garage compared to 3x2.5mm² for single phase 16A outlet.
Also, it's typically not that expensive to upgrade your panel, if you live in a zoned area. Buildings in the unzoned area typically have good electrical connections since in the countryside you typically want access to three phases.
As an example for moving from older single phase service to 3x25A, it costs around 810 € typically, with 2000-3000 € as a worst case scenario. That's in Lahti, Finland – in Espoo it seems to be around 500 €
Of course there's then the need to upgrade the panel as well, but that's a relatively simple operation.
My childhood home had 3x90A breakers since it originally had a resistive heat setup, in a relatively large building (plus some other energy intensive equipment housed there). In reality it was far too much even then, the max load we calculated under full load was more like 25-30 kW.
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Sure. But in the first Fast and Furious movie they're not driving syncro-less transmission semis. They're driving tricked out sports cars in a straight line and somehow having about 14 gear changes in a 6 speed manual.
While true, there are syncro-less racing transmissions as well for a number of the more popular moddable cars.
