Tesla withheld data, lied, and misdirected police and plaintiffs to avoid blame in Autopilot crash
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Tesla was caught withholding data, lying about it, and misdirecting authorities in the wrongful death case involving Autopilot that it lost this week.
The automaker was undeniably covering up for Autopilot.
Last week, a jury found Tesla partially liable for a wrongful death involving a crash on Autopilot. We now have access to the trial transcripts, which confirm that Tesla was extremely misleading in its attempt to place all the blame on the driver.
The company went as far as to actively withhold critical evidence that explained Autopilot’s performance around the crash. Within about three minutes of the crash, the Model S uploaded a “collision snapshot”—video, CAN‑bus streams, EDR data, etc.—to Tesla’s servers, the “Mothership”, and received an acknowledgement. The vehicle then deleted its local copy, resulting in Tesla being the only entity having access.
What ensued were years of battle to get Tesla to acknowledge that this collision snapshot exists and is relevant to the case.
The police repeatedly attempted to obtain the data from the collision snapshot, but Tesla led the authorities and the plaintiffs on a lengthy journey of deception and misdirection that spanned years.
Scumbags
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Folks. Publicly traded companies will ALWAYS compare the expected value of breaking the law with compliance.
Say it costs $100 million to follow the law. Breaking it comes with a $300 million fine, but only a 20% chance of getting caught.
They compare a 100% chance of paying $100 million to a 20% chance of paying $300 million.
Average cost of following the law: $100 million
Average cost of breaking it: $60 million
If we're gonna do capitalism (which I would rather we not, for the record!), we have to make that expected value calculation break in favor of following regulations. If it is cheaper to break the law than to follow it, you're not just losing money by complying: you're giving ground to your competition. Fines need to be massive. Infractions need to get caught and punished. Executives need to be held personally accountable. Corporations need to be dissolved. Fines cannot be just the cost of doing business.
Do people need to (re)watch Fight Club?
Narrator:
A new car built by my company leaves somewhere traveling at 60 mph. The rear differential locks up. The car crashes and burns with everyone trapped inside.
Now, should we initiate a recall?
Take the number of vehicles in the field, A, multiply by the probable rate of failure, B, multiply by the average out-of-court settlement, C. A times B times C equals X.
If X is less than the cost of a recall, we don't do one.
It's been like 25 years.
Did people like... genuienly not know this, forget about it?
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If they can transmit it, it is not a lot. It is that simple.
Nearly all of the vehicles have 4G/5G connectivity via AT&T. This isn't a dial up connection. They can transmit whatever the fuck they want.
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I'd raise you in that. Companies are people now. If companies break laws, they should be held accountable personally. Even Club Fed would be misery for 14 years on a murder rap.
I'd argue the entire C-suite should be legally responsible for anything the company does.
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@DrunkEngineer A normal company fires its CEO and cleans house after something like that. Instead Tesla just offered him a big new compensation package to encourage him to stay and keep destroying their reputation and any shred of morality they may claim to have.
A particular insurance company replaced a mysteriously dead executive with another who doubled down on premeditated murder.
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Tesla was caught withholding data, lying about it, and misdirecting authorities in the wrongful death case involving Autopilot that it lost this week.
The automaker was undeniably covering up for Autopilot.
Last week, a jury found Tesla partially liable for a wrongful death involving a crash on Autopilot. We now have access to the trial transcripts, which confirm that Tesla was extremely misleading in its attempt to place all the blame on the driver.
The company went as far as to actively withhold critical evidence that explained Autopilot’s performance around the crash. Within about three minutes of the crash, the Model S uploaded a “collision snapshot”—video, CAN‑bus streams, EDR data, etc.—to Tesla’s servers, the “Mothership”, and received an acknowledgement. The vehicle then deleted its local copy, resulting in Tesla being the only entity having access.
What ensued were years of battle to get Tesla to acknowledge that this collision snapshot exists and is relevant to the case.
The police repeatedly attempted to obtain the data from the collision snapshot, but Tesla led the authorities and the plaintiffs on a lengthy journey of deception and misdirection that spanned years.
Is this the one where the car crashes after Autopilot turns off? Where Tesla tries to claim that the driver floored it after it turned off?
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Within about three minutes of the crash, the Model S uploaded a “collision snapshot”—video, CAN‑bus streams, EDR data, etc.—to Tesla’s servers, the “Mothership”, and received an acknowledgement. The vehicle then deleted its local copy, resulting in Tesla being the only entity having access.
Holy fucking shit. What is the purpose of deleting the data on the vehicle other than to sabotage the owner of the vehicle?
Smells like intentional destruction of evidence.
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Folks. Publicly traded companies will ALWAYS compare the expected value of breaking the law with compliance.
Say it costs $100 million to follow the law. Breaking it comes with a $300 million fine, but only a 20% chance of getting caught.
They compare a 100% chance of paying $100 million to a 20% chance of paying $300 million.
Average cost of following the law: $100 million
Average cost of breaking it: $60 million
If we're gonna do capitalism (which I would rather we not, for the record!), we have to make that expected value calculation break in favor of following regulations. If it is cheaper to break the law than to follow it, you're not just losing money by complying: you're giving ground to your competition. Fines need to be massive. Infractions need to get caught and punished. Executives need to be held personally accountable. Corporations need to be dissolved. Fines cannot be just the cost of doing business.
The conditioning of people to think it must be monetary fines is strong I guess. Imo it shouldn't be a fine for intentionally breaking laws, especially when putting lives in danger. It should be jail time for the executives. Make the calculation disappear altogether.
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The conditioning of people to think it must be monetary fines is strong I guess. Imo it shouldn't be a fine for intentionally breaking laws, especially when putting lives in danger. It should be jail time for the executives. Make the calculation disappear altogether.
Do a China and just execute them.
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Do a China and just execute them.
Will happen just not in the way we want it.
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Within about three minutes of the crash, the Model S uploaded a “collision snapshot”—video, CAN‑bus streams, EDR data, etc.—to Tesla’s servers, the “Mothership”, and received an acknowledgement. The vehicle then deleted its local copy, resulting in Tesla being the only entity having access.
Holy fucking shit. What is the purpose of deleting the data on the vehicle other than to sabotage the owner of the vehicle?
It is possible that the data is just never saved in non-volatile memory meaning that once power is lost that the values are also lost. In which case its not really deleting the information but rather just that information is just never intentionally saved.
P.S. I am not a tesla fan boy just wanted to give this tiny insight.
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Is this the one where the car crashes after Autopilot turns off? Where Tesla tries to claim that the driver floored it after it turned off?
No, in this case autopilot never disengaged (but according to the article, it should have issued the warning and disengaged earlier)
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I'd argue the entire C-suite should be legally responsible for anything the company does.
The CEO in particular IMO, unless it's financial (CFO) or tech (CTO, CIO).
However, it's already the CEO's job to take the heat in public so the board doesn't have to.
Instead, hold everyone who holds a stake responsible, down to everyone with a 401k with 3 shares in the company for major violations.
See how quickly the shareholders vote to have better transparency.
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It is possible that the data is just never saved in non-volatile memory meaning that once power is lost that the values are also lost. In which case its not really deleting the information but rather just that information is just never intentionally saved.
P.S. I am not a tesla fan boy just wanted to give this tiny insight.
Hell, it could be that this is private information about the driver and the car's probably gonna end up in a Copart auction after insurance is done with it, so in a way they're protecting PII.
Before anyone's gonna accuse me of Tesla fanboyism (I do make a lot of devil's advocate style comments), I've driven exactly one Tesla in my life, decided it's a piece of shit with a great powertrain and OK infotainment but absolutely lacking UX for drivers, and a ridiculously plain interior. I will never buy a Tesla unless it's a used Tesla S or X with a newish battery for 10k because at that price it'd just be the cheapest way to get a luxury EV lol
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It is possible that the data is just never saved in non-volatile memory meaning that once power is lost that the values are also lost. In which case its not really deleting the information but rather just that information is just never intentionally saved.
P.S. I am not a tesla fan boy just wanted to give this tiny insight.
Yeah, this is a good point. Also, another comment said it’s possible the data snapshot is very large, so it’s not intended to be stored locally.
Either way, if you are sending data about my car to a server, it better be easy for me to get this data if needed.
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Hell, it could be that this is private information about the driver and the car's probably gonna end up in a Copart auction after insurance is done with it, so in a way they're protecting PII.
Before anyone's gonna accuse me of Tesla fanboyism (I do make a lot of devil's advocate style comments), I've driven exactly one Tesla in my life, decided it's a piece of shit with a great powertrain and OK infotainment but absolutely lacking UX for drivers, and a ridiculously plain interior. I will never buy a Tesla unless it's a used Tesla S or X with a newish battery for 10k because at that price it'd just be the cheapest way to get a luxury EV lol
I doubt they’re doing a full OS wipe when an accident occurs. So PII data would still be on there.
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I doubt they’re doing a full OS wipe when an accident occurs. So PII data would still be on there.
Just stuff you voluntarily save if the crash data is in RAM only. RAM gets autowiped.
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Nearly all of the vehicles have 4G/5G connectivity via AT&T. This isn't a dial up connection. They can transmit whatever the fuck they want.
Still, if it's small enough to transmit via any wireless connection they can easily keep the local copy.
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The CEO in particular IMO, unless it's financial (CFO) or tech (CTO, CIO).
However, it's already the CEO's job to take the heat in public so the board doesn't have to.
Instead, hold everyone who holds a stake responsible, down to everyone with a 401k with 3 shares in the company for major violations.
See how quickly the shareholders vote to have better transparency.
While an attractive pitch, remember that what's going to fuck over the working class are the laws intended to attack the assholes at the top. Which group do you think will have the means to defend themselves in court, has the power to make legislative moves, and would benefit from having another tool to fuck their slaves with?
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It is possible that the data is just never saved in non-volatile memory meaning that once power is lost that the values are also lost. In which case its not really deleting the information but rather just that information is just never intentionally saved.
P.S. I am not a tesla fan boy just wanted to give this tiny insight.
Forensic analysis managed to retrieve this data, so it must have been stored in non-volatile memory.
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